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PostPosted: Fri May 16, 2003 20:30 pm 
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I think the banana cartridge would serve you better in combat.........

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PostPosted: Sat May 17, 2003 00:12 am 
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No no no its the ammunition. The .223 ammunition for the M4/M16 is very good but very small and in fact instead just goes through a person...takes quite a bit of shots to take a person down. They were bitching about it in 'Black Hawk Down' the book...the .308 bullets on the other hand and other 7.62MM rounds have great stopping power (thus why Shutgart took an M21).

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2003 15:05 pm 
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It looks like the Six Day War won the balloting.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2003 19:16 pm 
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Ofourse, it was an amazing victory, I mean who else could have beatin such odds or even attepted.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2003 19:53 pm 
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The Island-Hopping campaign is among my favorites though. McArthur said he'd returned and he did, without losing a single ship!

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2003 02:50 am 
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Well, there is lots to respond to. It wasn't in the poll but I believe that the Tet offensive was truly one of the great military actions ever. Just consider this. The vietnamese never had much of a central control like the American forces. To move thousands of troops without being noticed, and over such a great distance was brilliant. Not to mention the timing. All forces basically hit at once. The American forces did however win the ground war but they still lost the battle because it was the straw that broke the camels back. It was too costly and the Americans retreated over the next 7 years and went home.

I agree with Cag that the nuclear war article is not very factual. The simple thing about nuclear war is this...nobody wins. During the 60's and during the Cuban Crisis Kennedy and Kruschev were the only ones who realized that. They surrounded themselves with generals that honestly believed and said with total conviction that they can win a nuclear war. But everybody dies. Maybe not all at once but the world would be blown hundreds of times over so it would be little more then an infectious gas ball. When it comes to nuclear war there is no victory for anyone. And I hope that at least some of you realize that.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2003 02:54 am 
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Quote:
The Island-Hopping campaign is among my favorites though. McArthur said he'd returned and he did, without losing a single ship!


Actually Cent, That's not true. The US lost quite a few ships in the effort to repell the IJ forces from the South Pacific.

Just in carriers we lost:
CV2 USS Lexington
CV5 USS Yorktown
CV8 USS Hornet
mmm......USS Saratoga and Wasp I think

Not to mention several destroyers, Cruisers, Jeep Carriers (CL's and CE's), Sub's PT boats.

Fortunately we were able to sink all of the IJN's carriers ,Battleships and most of their destroyers and cruisers. And no telling how many of their supply ships.

Although I'd have to aggree that the island hopping stratagy worked well, leaving non-strategic Jap garrisons isolated , cut off from communications and supplies from mainland Japan. Desease and starvation dessimated these isolated garrisons for the most part[/code]

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2003 02:58 am 
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I think that Cent was only talking about the ships under Corn Cob's command. Those carriers were under the command of Nimitz and Hallsey I think. I could be wrong though, who knows.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2003 14:45 pm 
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Actually no ships were ever under direct control of MacArthur, while at the same time all were...

What I mean is that the USN kept control of all ships, but they were under MacArthur's command..

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In the battle of Leyte Gulf, during the invasion of the Phillipines, the USN lost several destroyers and 1 'jeep carrier' USS Gamber Bay of Taffy 3 ( 3 task groups of light carriers and Desroyers and Destroyer escorts were directly assinged to supporting MacArthur on the invasion beaches, named Taffy 1, Taffy 2, and Taffy 3) to Japanese heavy gunfire from cruisers and battleships, an additional jeep carrier, USS St. Lo to a Kamakazie and one medium carrier.. USS Princeton (pictured above) to a dive bomber

Excerpts from the battle below...

"At 0647 Ensign Jensen - the pilot of a plane from carrier Kadashan Bay - sighted, and then attacked, Japanese ships which he with remarkable accuracy identified as 4 battleships and 8 cruisers accompanied by destroyers.

Then, just before 7am, lookouts on the escort carriers saw the masts and fighting-tops of Japanese battleships and cruisers appear above the northern horizon. A minute later heavy shells began falling near Taffy Three.

The surprise was complete. Taffy Three was in a desperate situation, facing an exceptionally powerful force which also had a great superiority in speed over the escort carriers, while the only ships which Clifton Sprague had available to protect his flattops were the three destroyers and four destroyer escorts of his screen.

At 0657 Sprague had turned his carriers due east, begun working them up to their maximum speed of seventeen-and-a-half knots, ordered all his ships to lay smoke, and started to launch every available aircraft. At 0701 he issued a contact report and a call for assistance from anyone able to give it.

Japanese lookouts had sighted the escort carriers at 0644 when Kurita's ships were deploying from column into a circular anti-aircraft disposition.

Admiral Kurita then ordered "General Attack," permitting his ships' commanding officers to deploy against the US ships on their own inititative and without referring to the flagship. This was to mean that he lost control of the battle, and his giving such an order when his force was already engaged in redeployment caused immense confusion within the Japanese formation.

Shortly after the battle began Taffy Three's carriers entered a rain squall which protected them for about fifteen minutes and enabled Sprague to bring them around to the south-west - i.e. towards Leyte Gulf and the rest of Seventh Fleet.

At 0716 Sprague ordered his three Fletcher-class destroyers - Hoel, Heermann and Johnston - to counter-attack the Japanese formation. This they did with remarkable heroism and tenacity. They unflinchingly took on the battleships and cruisers, engaging these heavy ships with their 5-inch guns as well as their torpedoes.

At about 0750 the American destroyer escorts with equal heroism joined the counter-attack. At 0754 the vast battleship Yamato, now serving as Kurita's flagship after the sinking of Atago on 23 October, was forced to turn away for ten minutes by torpedoes from the American destroyers and was never able to get back into the action.

A very confused struggle by the DDs and DEs against the Japanese force continued for over two hours. By 0945 the Hoel and Johnston, and the destroyer escort Samuel B. Roberts, had been sunk by Japanese gunfire. At least one torpedo hit was made on Kurita's ships, and probably more, but what was of much greater importance was that the Japanese heavy ships had been forced into repeated evasive action and that this had slowed their advance, caused increasing confusion in the already badly disorganised Japanese formation, and deprived Kurita of any chance of regaining effective control of his force.

While the small ships of Clifton Sprague's screen were conducting these desperate counter-attacks the Japanese ships were also subjected to incessant assaults by aircraft from the three Taffies. Many of these attacks were carried out by aircraft armed with weapons intended for ground support and quite unsuited for attack on large warships, and many others were dummy attacks by unarmed aircraft.

Nonetheless, with the weapons available to them, the aircraft succeeded in sinking three heavy cruisers and damaging several other ships. These air attacks also played a vital role in support of the destroyers and DEs in distracting the enemy ships from the escort carriers, forcing them into evasive manoevres, and disorganizing the Japanese formation.

Despite all these heroic efforts the escort carrier Gambier Bay was eventually hit repeatedly by 8-inch gunfire, was crippled, and sank at 0907.

But then, entirely unexpectedly, and although his cruisers and destroyers were now on the verge of annihilating Taffy Three, Kurita at 0911 ordered his ships to break off action.

As Clifton Sprague later recalled -

"At 0925 my mind was occupied with dodging torpedoes when I heard one of the signalmen yell 'Goddamit, boys, they're getting away!' I could not believe my eyes, but it looked as if the whole Japanese fleet was indeed retiring. However, it took a whole series of reports from circling planes to convince me. And still I could not get the fact to soak into my battle-numbed brain. At best, I had expected to be swimming by this time."

While Taffy Three was fighting Kurita's ships, Taffy One was being subjected to the first organized kamikaze attack of the war. Later that morning Taffy Three itself was attacked by kamikazes. At about 1100 the escort carrier St. Lo was crashed by a Zero which caused a series of explosions, and she sank at 1125. Four more of the Seventh Fleet's escort carriers were damaged by kamikaze attack during 25 October."


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2003 15:00 pm 
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Where do you get all this stuff from CAG? Cause I find it hard to believe that you just sat there and typed all that.........

Where's your source?

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2003 15:03 pm 
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If cut and pasted it (which is why I quoted it and listed it as an excerpt)...

here is the link... took me about 1 minute under a Yahoo search to locate the information I wanted...

http://www.angelfire.com/fm/odyssey/LEY ... attle_.htm


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2003 18:56 pm 
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I forgot to mention something earlier. I was going to bring up how fragile the D-Day campaign was. I can't remember where I read this but I was reading an article about WWII espionage and in the article it mentioned that an allied double agent was able to convince German high command that Normandy was a diversion. I'm sure many of you know this already. NOrth of Normandy I think there was a full panzer division, maybe more and if the Germans wanted to they could have committed those forces much earlier and in time for the beachhead assault instead of using them in the Normandy breakout. I guess its just one of those situations of fate that the forces weren't sent in.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2003 22:13 pm 
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RGRT Hitler's top advisors believed the attack would be at the closest point between France/England which is Calais, France. This was done through fake communications that tricked the Germans. I recall posting about this earlier on this board too (1st page of this thread LOL). Another major part in the allies' success was the German forces being built up greatest at Calais.

It's most likely all would have failed otherwise, as it was basically greater numbers that broke threw the strong defenses - summing up to things like mass confusion & running out of ammo etc, metaphorically speaking...a whole defense in football going after the opposing quarterback who has maybe one linebacker lol (yes that was lame). However can't forget about other less fortunate points where allies weren't so lucky due to screwups and therefore didn't have that advantage.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 25, 2003 15:14 pm 
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It wasnt just a Panzer division, it was the entire 15th Panzer Army.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 25, 2003 16:03 pm 
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hmm. A whole Panzer army. hmm, if they were deployed I don't know paratroopers and seaborne infantry could have done anything about them.


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