Zephyr Net

Certainly! My statements are not 'blanket' statements, they are backed up by current facts, not quotes from combat that took place many decades ago (your Pak/India combat referrence)...

India's current budget allows very little funding for actual combat training, instead funding your upgrade and aircraft aquisition projects, and munitions purchases...

India has no current training area or program such as Red Flag, to enable their pilots to engage in as close to real combat as possible.

IndAF tactics follow closely the Russian model, given the fact that many of their top line officers were Russian trained and indoctrinated in tactical use of Russian weapons.

Russian model is close ground/air control of their assets with mutual support provided by 'welded wing' formations (vs the US 'loose' formation tacticals for envelopment engagements for BVR battles).

The Russian model, while competent, does not all much in the way of initative by the actual pilot, coupled by the fact that the Indian designed radar in the SU-30MKI, while a strong radar, with a large surface(thus large power), has been shown to be susceptible to jamming (in IndAF testing)and and its pulse rate to be totally ineffective against stealth aircraft. Add to this the fact that the Indians have been frustrated in avionics development to allow the full multirole capabilities of the aircraft to be fully developed(thus the long delay in delivery) and the limited number in service, leads many tacticians to believe that the threat posed by these aircraft are minimal in relation to those of other modern airforces... - Directly from the USNI database...

why not put the MiG-21s to good use? Stuff them full of chaff (inside and out) and have them fly above and ahead of main formations, when a missle is fired the pilot could set the auto pilot (if the Fishbeds even have one) and bail out. BOOM poooof instant wall of chaff, it's Linebacker all over again lol

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Fighting for justice with brains of steel

Let your anger be like the monkey which hides inside the piniata.

LOL... Now Kap, that isnt a constructive suggestion in regards to this string! hehe....

well I COULD have said---> lett them out to local restaurants to allow them to use them as an all purpose meat/vegetable slicer, just toss it in the front end and catch it coming out the tailpipe. Would work just as well for a garbage disposal!!

_________________
Fighting for justice with brains of steel

Let your anger be like the monkey which hides inside the piniata.

Geeze Kap...

IF I had time today to respond to this I would say something like "heh heh heh" ..but I dont so I wont

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Fighting for justice with brains of steel

Let your anger be like the monkey which hides inside the piniata.

Ok I think this string has officially degenerated and needs to be closed down. I think we have exhausted all aspects of opinions on the validity of uprated Fishbeds and their contribution to modern aircombat...

Next!

The Fishbed sucks, end of story. Let this be the final reply (it'll probably have a reverse effect and start the posting back up, lol).

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allah no longer exists, for I have killed him. You must worship me instead.

Hi all,

WTF is this No post mode error??

Had posted long reply, got this error after the submit button, and when I went back, my reply had disappeared,
Close this threadd, you simply wont listen anyway and the disc has gone to the IAF itself, new thread for that? I wanna reply to CAGs post..

da bnig!,
Yeah right!, Nothing sucks more than the F 15 Eagle..

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Download FAMP 1.1, FA India Pakistan and Music Libs

http://13vultures.tripod.com,

Centurian's
http://www.theforsakenoutlaw.com/main.htm

When one is shot down maybe........

_________________


allah no longer exists, for I have killed him. You must worship me instead.

Hi,

CAG,

Please read berlow, a point by point rebuttal of your post at the top of the 9th page,


1. Indian AFs training budget.

Please give me figures with a breakdown of the Indian AFs budget and the amount it spends on training(weapons, flight, navigation etc). We use our funding the way we think is best, I donot claim to know the exact training budget for the IAF to make statements like the one you have made above.

2. India has no training prog like Red flag

CAG, Ever heard of TACDE, (Tactics and Air combat Devpt Estd).It is based at Maharajpur AFS at Gwalior in Central India and is the equivalent of Top Gun, It uses aircraft like the MiG 21 bis, MiG 27 ML, and sometimes even Jaga and MiG 29s for rigorous DACT exercise. The pilots graduating from that course are some of the best on the planet.
Just because you dont seem to know about ti, doesnt mean it dont exist.

3.Indian AF tactics follow Russian tactics

The biggest myth/ bull on the net on the IAF is the above statement.
The 'top' pilots were sent to Russia and they were taught only how to take off, land and some BFMs, nothing in the way of tactics were taught, they had to be developed in house.
Our tactics are free flowing as the next best on the planet.
The 7 or so pilots sent to the erstwhile USSR were taught just the above and told to go home. If anything our tactics resemble a mix of Franco/ Brit tacics evolved and moulded to suit our AF and more importantly our aircraft.

4. N011M Bars and its 'alleged' susceptibility to jamming

Well have not heard even a whisper to this claim i India, in the meantime could you give me the exact link for the USNI report? would love to read it in whole.
Thanks,


Lastly a request, please dont believe all the crap you read up on the net.

_________________
Download FAMP 1.1, FA India Pakistan and Music Libs

http://13vultures.tripod.com,

Centurian's
http://www.theforsakenoutlaw.com/main.htm

Hey CAG,

please check your PM inbox.
Have sent you a PM a few days back, and is VNFAWING down? Have been trying for the past 3 days, gives me a403 forbidden error.

_________________
Download FAMP 1.1, FA India Pakistan and Music Libs

http://13vultures.tripod.com,

Centurian's
http://www.theforsakenoutlaw.com/main.htm

Manoj...

1) Numbers of Indian AIrforce Budget are not officially published to the dollar, as you already know. My source is the USNI database, where the prospective budget information is pulically announced to the USNI from all military services around the world that subscribe to the database.

Have you ever seen the database or joined it? It is not cheap, so I doubt you have. IndAF funding has been split along these lines for the last several years...

35/25/20/10/10.. 35% for new aircraft aquisition, 25% for spares and fuel usage, 20% for upgrade programs, 10% for training, 10% for future R&D.

2)T.A.C.D.E. Yes Actually I have heard of it. According to USNI its funding was cut back extensively in 2001. However this program did represent more along the lines of Topgun, and not Red Flag, which is interactive air/ground dominance environment, including dedicated air/ground strike - recon - air superiority and dominace - CSAR - Special Forces inflitration, attack, and extraction training.

T.A.C.D.E. is more or less for training ACM... (I would not call it DACT since you only use your own aircraft and your own pilots, thus you are in the trap that the USAF found itself prior to Vietnam, with no experience against the possible enemies true aircraft capabilities.

While it is true the course itself has evolved to incorporate surface to air threats and associated doctrine to suppress them, the threats posed on the trainig range are those of the Indian Army and Airforce, again not those of its enemies.

When you train against your own simulating a threat you pose to t the enemy, what you learn is how to overcome your own defenses, not those posed by the threat forces...

3)IndAF tactical development split from the RAF after India gained its independance. However during the 1970s and early 1980s, IndAF officers entered training at Russian training centers. These combat leaders were indoctrinated in the use of their Russian supplied aircraft and weapons in a ground control environment. Thus making maximum use of the IADs supplied again by the Soviet Union that India relies on for everyday static airdefense coupled with effective tactics for intercepting inbound traffic from Pakistan...

Shall I go on?

Bear in mind that I am not saying the IndAF is not an effective force in the regional aspect against (some)its regional enemies. I am saying your training forces, weapons integration(even with the formation of the Integrated Defense Command structure) C3 and C4 capabilites, and trianing syllabis is inadquate to counter any US intervention...

Esentially your forces would be decimated within 24 hours, if that long.

Hi CAG,

Well, believe me, I am not under any delusion of taking on the USAF, but the observation that the fight would be over in 24 hours.
I am not saying that we would have a good kill ratio etc, just that it wont be easy and we 'aint no Eyeraq.

Well TACDE shifted from Jamnagar to Gwalior in that time I guess and that adjustment was done.
Well, while we dont have foreign aircraft visiting, we have had quite a few pilots exchanged with the Israeli AF( F 16s and I guess MIIIs), RAF(Jags with VC 10s), and even Iraq(when Saddam was good)..(MiG 21 MFs with Magics and Mirage F1s with Kh 29s, I guess).
Although a visit by Beagles might do something to redress that..

_________________
Download FAMP 1.1, FA India Pakistan and Music Libs

http://13vultures.tripod.com,

Centurian's
http://www.theforsakenoutlaw.com/main.htm

Manoj- quit saying hi and hey to everybody before you post ok? That gets kinda annoying.....

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allah no longer exists, for I have killed him. You must worship me instead.