Zephyr Net


Return to the Fighters Anthology Resource Center

Go to the VNFAWING.com Forums
It is currently Sun Jul 06, 2025 12:45 pm

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 77 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Thu Jul 03, 2003 16:07 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 08, 2003 00:45 am
Posts: 88
What was it, a good two thirds if not all of the A-10s used in Yugoslavia took more or less damage, yet not one fell down (except the one which crashlanded short of the runway in Macedonia). Had those been F-16s doing the A-10s job, they'd have all gone down.

As for the JSF, well, I think anything would be better in the A-10s role than an F-16.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jul 03, 2003 23:06 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2003 00:26 am
Posts: 1409
Location: Mid-Coast USA
nope all versions of F-35 are about 1 to 2 feet longer than F-16, anything else?. Also F-16s with a certain engine have been grounded since July 2nd after a crash on June 10th

_________________
Fighting for justice with brains of steel

Let your anger be like the monkey which hides inside the piniata.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jul 04, 2003 11:33 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 15, 2003 18:58 pm
Posts: 2041
Location: Charleston, USA
F-16- 49 feet 5 inches

JSF- 45 feet

According to FAS

_________________
Image

allah no longer exists, for I have killed him. You must worship me instead.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jul 04, 2003 13:11 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2003 00:26 am
Posts: 1409
Location: Mid-Coast USA
yeah FAS has ONE generic post saying 45ft, every other sourse says 51 to 52 ft. ME WIN!!!

_________________
Fighting for justice with brains of steel

Let your anger be like the monkey which hides inside the piniata.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2003 17:06 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2003 18:54 pm
Posts: 4437
NVA,

Sadly you have not learned a thing from the use of this board...

Please take a second and read what the string is about... It is about the JSF and comparing the JSF to the A-10 and F-16, since it will be replacing both...

It is not about comparing the F-16 to the A-10...

The JSF will be able to engage more targets, obtain more kills, both ground and air, then both the A-10 and the F-16 combined...

The F-16 IS an excelent aircraft! I love it as I do the WartHog...

However they are both fast approaching theend of their effective lives.. The F-16 is simply to easy to kill with SAMs and AAA(which, btw have been the only losses on these birds, which means they truly are vulnerable), the A-10 is also vulnerable and its limited weapons engagement envelope means that its pilots are always going to be in harms way...

The F-35 will be able to cruise undetected to its engagement point, fire its weapons, and then retire from the area before the enemy can engage it. If forcd into a dogfight it will be able to close to within AMRAAM range before the enemy can obtain a lock, thus first look, first shoot, while both the F-16 and the A-10 are simply to easy to locate with radar and are forced to rely on jamming and SEAD support...

The JSF is atleast 2 generations ahead of either of these birds and can do the job more cost effectively and survive to be used again...


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2003 17:11 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 15, 2003 18:58 pm
Posts: 2041
Location: Charleston, USA
There's no way anyone will be able to truly guage the F-35 until it is combat tested.......

It certianly doesn't have the kind of armor that the A-10 does.........

_________________
Image

allah no longer exists, for I have killed him. You must worship me instead.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2003 17:25 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2003 18:54 pm
Posts: 4437
Da Big, I swear you have to be the slowest person I have ever dealt with on the internet...

You have zero capacity for functional thought. The F-35 is NOT a laydown bomber (do you even know what that is?). It is not trackable by current radar, for either AAA or SAMs, which have been shown to be the number one killers of US aircraft(GO check the number of F-16s and A-10s downed by AAA and SAMs... You will be unhappy)...

Why armor an aircraft that will not operate within the threat area of what you would need armor for? These type of statements just show you to be even dumber then we all thought. Do you understand anything at all about aerodynamics?

Why are you going back to making these idiotic blanket statements about something you do not understand and seemingly not have the brain power to ever comprehend...


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2003 20:02 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 15, 2003 18:58 pm
Posts: 2041
Location: Charleston, USA
I prefer to wait until a weapon has been tested in combat before I call it a success........

_________________
Image

allah no longer exists, for I have killed him. You must worship me instead.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2003 15:37 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2003 18:54 pm
Posts: 4437
da big man! wrote:
I prefer to wait until a weapon has been tested in combat before I call it a success........


So you are saying that the F-22 is not a success? Not a good aircraft? The Eurofighter Typhoon is also a failure? The SU-33 not a functional aircraft? Not a successful carrier aircraft?

What about the FJ-series Fury? It was based on the F-86.. Flew with the USN and USMC for 10 years, but was not used in combat. Is that also a failure?

How about the FB-111A, it was the Strategic Air Command version of the F-111F... was it also a failure because it stood nuclear alert for 20 years but wasnt used? How about the B-58 Hustler? The B-47? The very first high performance swept wing jet bomber in SAC.. THe very foundation of the B-52 that later replaced it.. What about the B-36? Neither of these aircraft ever saw combat... Are they just scraps of junk?

The British BAC Lightning... fastest accelerating combat jet ever to fly, especially considering it was designed at the end of the 1950s... served with the British but never used in combat, simply because no one ever attacked their airspace... Just more trash right?

What about the Chieftien MBT? Heavest conventionally armored and armed tank to ever be fielded. Served with British forces for 15 years or more, never in combat... Just more expensive scrap metal right?

Geeze I am just overwhelmed by your brillant logic....


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2003 19:06 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 15, 2003 18:58 pm
Posts: 2041
Location: Charleston, USA
Wait until an aircraft has a successful military career before you compare it to greatness.......

_________________
Image

allah no longer exists, for I have killed him. You must worship me instead.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2003 15:04 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2003 18:54 pm
Posts: 4437
Then with your logic the B-47 was a failure since it never dropped a bomb load in combat. Nevermind all the new innovations that it brought to the aircraft industry, the very foundation of all the modern jet passenger aircraft were developed from the B-47 design with its swept wings and its podded jet engines...

Big, you sure are different....


Last edited by CAG Hotshot on Tue Jul 15, 2003 15:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2003 16:58 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2003 00:26 am
Posts: 1409
Location: Mid-Coast USA
I have an aquaintance with WAY too much time on his hands, and he's done a little number crunching for the F-35, and said it was OK to post this.


Quote:
I've often ridiculed myself for being an airplane design geek, but I think I've gone overboard with this hobby. I've accumulated unclassified data from many sources and attempted to calculate the performance of all F-35 models. It was just too tempting a target of opportunity. Much of the work is based on SWAGs but it's time to publish or perish. Anyway, I'll get the discussion rolling with a few observations. The "C" model is my choice for the thinking man's war machine. It's relatively slow (M=1.6) and sluggish (P sub s 11% lower than "A" at the 30k ft maneuver point indicating inferior acceleration/climb) but it can maneuver well and sure haul bombs a far piece. I may be seeing the light on the F-18E concept (wait, that can't be right). Oh yeah, it can land on ships too...way cool. There are some problems though. I'd like to have a bringback weight around 10000 lbs but the approach speed is too high resulting in an unacceptable (to a structures guy) sink speed. My personal cut off is 24 ft/sec. With a little work on the high lift system (maybe fowler flaps?) and some heroic weight savings, it has possibilities for improvement. On the other hand, maybe I'm too conservative with the estimated maximum lift coefficient (Clmax=1.7). A little homework on the "B" model shows why STOVL is not popular. Range and payload are inferior, no suprise, and it is marginal on vertical landing bringback, a measly 3000 lbs by my calcs. The relative cost of the "B" is probably between 2 and 3 times the "A" because of unique features and low production. The "A" model should be very popular. It is the smallest and cheapest version by far. Performance as a useful weapon system should be superior to anything today. Another observation, the JSF is not from the John Boyd school of aircraft design. Instead of emphasizing point performance, these things push range, payload and versatility. Let's coin a new phrase "fuel is life". Here are some comparisons:

Empty weight for A,B,C = 25000,30000,28200
Reference wing area = 460, 460, 620 sq ft
Top speeds (SL knots,M @altitude) = (790,2.06),(790,2.05),(710,1.6)
Turn rate @ 30k ft = 8.0, 7.4, 8.8 deg/sec
Sustained g's @ 30k ft = 4.0, 3.7, 4.4 g's
Specific excess power, Ps @30k ft, 1g = 360, 332, 320 ft/sec
Cruise L/D @ 40k ft. = 10.4, 10.4, 11.9
Cruise specific range = .15, .14, .15 n.m. per pound of fuel
Take-off weight for basic interdiction mission = 46300,46400,50300lbs
Initial rate of climb = 50800, 50700, 44400 ft/min
Interdiction mission payload = 2 x GBU-32 + 2 x AIM-9 internally
Internal fuel = 18300, 13400, 19100 lbs
Mission Radius for interdiction mission = 840, 420, 920 n.m.

There's lots more. I don't know if it's correct, but it has some scientific basis. Anyone have any nagging questions? Maybe I can give some insight.


_________________
Fighting for justice with brains of steel

Let your anger be like the monkey which hides inside the piniata.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2003 19:47 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Feb 07, 2003 19:00 pm
Posts: 763
All the data looks pretty good but I disagree on the weapons load. First day of the war it might be all internal but the plan is for it to be carrying external stores as soon as it's safe enough. Also I think AMRAAMs can be carried in the bay in addition to the JDAMs and I see no reason to carry only Sidewinders when you have a longer range capability. Also the speeds are very interesting. What is the latest news on F-22 top speed. I know officially it is something like mach 1.9 but I've seen some claims all the way up to mach 3.0 :roll: IIRC the F-22's fixed inlets inhibit efficient airflow at high mach numbers.

Zephyr


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2003 22:45 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 15, 2003 18:58 pm
Posts: 2041
Location: Charleston, USA
CAG Hotshot wrote:
Then with your logic the B-47 was a failure since it never dropped a bombload in combat. Nevermind all the new innovations that it brought to the aircraft industry, the very foundation of all the modern jet passenger aircraft were developed from the B-47 design with its swept wings and its podded jet engines...

Big, you sure are different....


I prefer to wait till its combat tested. Desert Storm is what saved the M-1s career, wait till the JSF has actual combat under its belt till you give off all these kill ratio numbers.

But there certianly is no need to insult me cause you disagree.........

_________________
Image

allah no longer exists, for I have killed him. You must worship me instead.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Jul 12, 2003 00:23 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2003 00:26 am
Posts: 1409
Location: Mid-Coast USA
I believe the small warload was just to give a common load to all aircraft and I think he figured this load into those performance numbers. I like the extra "G"s you get at altitude with the "big wing" C model.

the F-22 last I heard was that they were programming software warnings for the pilots to keep them from "overspeeding" the airframe. As I understand it the entire airframe, every single little thing is designed for a speed of Mach 1.5 to 1.7 to achieve efficient supercruise. Anything close to Mach 2 probly starts wreaking havoc with the LO coatings and such. The F-15 was rated for Mach2.5 (later de-rated to M2.3 with different engines) but the protos excceeded M2.7 but again the heat began to make nasty things happen. The exterior of the F-22 is SOOO clean I suspect it could come VERY close to Mach3, but probly with considerable damage to some parts/systems.

_________________
Fighting for justice with brains of steel

Let your anger be like the monkey which hides inside the piniata.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 77 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 9 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group