Zephyr Net

The migs wont be much use againts planes like F-15, 16, 18, 22, EF-200, Su-27 Family but they will very efective agints other oldr model planes. If i am not mistaken Manoj you have said that China is the biggest treat that faces India, correct?

If so thier airforce is full of older model airfraft such as F-7 as well as F-6, there are others newer such as Su-30, and F-8 (F-7 with 2 engines) but many are older in design. It sem lik the goal is too keep as many aircraft in the air because if not the modern Mirage jets will get out numbered.

The Chines seem to work on the system of quantity over quality, although they have been making their forces more modern, they still have a large amount of older aircraft for service, some estimates say upto 2-2500 aircraft (if not more) in total in time of war.

_________________


August 2nd 2003
The 110th Anniversary of Yugolsaivan Aviation!
St. Elias the gardian of the Fighter pilot.

China is deep in the midst of a complete strategic upgrade of all their aircraft. You will most likely not see the F-6 or basic F-7s in her future airforce when the Indian Mig-21 upgrades are actually fielded.

China has just negotiated with Russsia for an additional shipments of SU-30MKKs and AS-17 missiles. Plus additional batches of AA-12s while they do the work on their own PL-12 system (not an AA-12 clone, more like an AA-12 type homer mixed with the PL-10 missile body) while at the same time increasing their production license for additional numbers of home built SU-27s...

I certainly would not want to be piloting a MIG-21 version to counter this threat..

Hi,

CAG,

Well how many years is it going to take for the Chinese to build Su 30 MKKs in numbers?
How many years is it going to take to phase out J 7 s in numbers? How many to get planes like the J10 in numbers?
The MiG 21 Bison upgrade IS underway, and an entire squadron has been upgraded, and probably 3-4 more in the process, Jaguars undergo rololing upgrades, example recent substantial numbers were wired to carry the Litening pod, and some for Vinten Vicon recon pods.BTW MiG 21 Bisons also have an unspecified HMCS in service.
Sure I too wouldnt want to be in the 'pit of a MiG 21 when facing a Su 30 MKK, but if my GCI/AWACS is good enough, and if the terrain suits me(which the mountainous Indo China border is), then a MiG 21 can handle a Flanker close up.
Also dont discount the Su 30 MKI with the N011M Bars and the 12 AAMs with that datalink thingamajig which can vector other fighters.

And as previously posted, give my air force a few billion $$s nd we'll retire all the MiG 21/23/27s.


The IAF and the PLAAF usually order eqpt of similar quality.types, like you said the order for a number of R77s, well even the IAF has placed this order, and deliveries have begun, as there are numerous pics of MiG 21 Bisons and Su30 MKIs with R77s under their wings.

BT Ace,
While China has operated on quantity more than quality, that is changing, and tyill the changes are fully in place there still exists a threat, so the numbers are needed.

_________________
Download FAMP 1.1, FA India Pakistan and Music Libs

http://13vultures.tripod.com,

Centurian's
http://www.theforsakenoutlaw.com/main.htm

Not to mention the J-10 which is in operational testing. It potentially offers a multi-role F-16 like capability with decent weapons and radar. Although indigenous Chinese ATG is still very much in development (C-701 TV-guided missile for example) they could put some AS-17s on it for ASUW and SEAD use. For ATA it will definately carry the PL-12 if that missile makes it, which looks increasingly likely now that they simply use the R-77 seeker.

Zephyr

Well considering that the production line for the SU-30MKK is quite ramped up and under full use I would ahve to say that hte additional arcraft will be deliever this year and next year, with follow on contracts expected for the next 4 to 5years. Within 5 years their entire airforce's most prevelent type will be SU-27 derivitives..

Do not forget that while the Russians are building the SU-30s for them, they are hard at work producing their own SU-27s...

Add to that their installation of the Phazetron (sp?) radars into the J-8 IIs and their ability to now carry the AA-10 and AA-12, coupled with the possible production of the J-10 and you start to see even to a higher degree how ridiclous the idea is to waste your energy and resources on upgrading the FIshbed!

In the attack wings the JH-7 is going active in the PLANAF, while the current airdefense use J-7s are being modified for stike only missions to replace the J-6s still in service...

CAG out...

Hi,


CAG,
Sure Su27s are being built and so are Su 30 MKKs, but then in 5 years, so will all the MiG 21 Bisons be upgraded, and its better to face a Su 27 derivative/J 8 in a MiG 21 with similar weapons than with R 60 MKS, dont you think?

Upgrading a select number of the MiG-21s with better avionics and armament to make them more compatible in today’s hostile EW rich environment could do this. Thus was borne the MiG-21 Bison program.
It was proposed to extend the Total Technical Life (TTL) of the MiG-21Bis from the current level of 2400 Hours as well as Upgrade the avionic capabilities of the existing aircraft.
Besides the major airframe, weapons and radar contract with MiG, a contract with Sextant was signed for the Inertial navigation System (INS), with HAL for subsequent upgradation of the aircraft, with NAL for fatigue testing and studies in TTL Extension and with BEL for development of the Tarang Radar warning Receiver (RWR).
Also the very crappy forward view from the cockpit has been improved/ made very good by using a bubble /one piece canopy.
Also consider that the IAPO in Russia is also building Su 30 MKI1s as well, ans newer Jaguars are also ordered, just last year IIRC an order for 17, 2-seaters, supposedly for night/LGB strikes was placed.
Also, while China is the bigger threat, theres also the Pakistanis, to the west.
Easy to forget about them....

_________________
Download FAMP 1.1, FA India Pakistan and Music Libs

http://13vultures.tripod.com,

Centurian's
http://www.theforsakenoutlaw.com/main.htm

Yes they are changing but for an airforce of that size it is and will take a long amount of time. With that many airfarft there are a large amount of piots to be retrained, if not China will have serious problems when older genaration Mig pilots enter high tech jets like Su-30 and so on. Untill then the F-7 are the backbone if you will, and if something is to happen tomorow they will be in the air fighting. The Mig-21 upgrade that India is under cannot be anything more then a patch up solution to tie them over, correct? Because if not that is abad move, if you wish to counter a treat like China.

_________________


August 2nd 2003
The 110th Anniversary of Yugolsaivan Aviation!
St. Elias the gardian of the Fighter pilot.

Hi

BT,
Right, the MiG 21 upgrade is nothing but a tem solution till the LCA gets there, ~2008.

_________________
Download FAMP 1.1, FA India Pakistan and Music Libs

http://13vultures.tripod.com,

Centurian's
http://www.theforsakenoutlaw.com/main.htm

2008??? Wow long time, the Mig-21 with a upgrade maybe useful for countries like Romania, Albania, S & M for that long but for India 2008 is a long time excpetialy if you biggest treat is China.

_________________


August 2nd 2003
The 110th Anniversary of Yugolsaivan Aviation!
St. Elias the gardian of the Fighter pilot.

You are both in a dream world...

China has no pilot shortage for their planned Flanker fleet. They are already well ahead of the curve...

Their production license for the J-11 has just been doubled, the SU-30MKK purchases all are delieved within 1 year of the order, now that the Russian produciton facilities are at full pace for the design.

A Mig-21, no matter what is done to it, can not survive in the face of Flankers.

F-15s would have a tough time doing this, much less a 1950s vintage design...

I do not care what you do to the MiG... it will have a small combat presence, no matter what weapons it can carry, due to its small fuel load requiring external tanks and its limited number of hard points.

THe only think it will do well is die...

Well thats not much of an option, and you cant realy retire a lage number of aircraft without a replacment. Its a patch CAG, its not suppost be great but only hold on till the permanent thing arrives.

Here is some infor on Chinese aircraft their numbers: some 4500 conbat and support aircraft intotal.

FIGHTERS:
J-6 = 1,000 and over, still inservice
J-7 = ~800
J-7C/D = ~70
J-7E = ~300
J-8 = ~200
J-8B = ~350
Su-27/J-11 = 76(from Russia, last delivered in 199-200) + 250 (to come from china, some prob have)
Su-30 = 76 + 28 more by 2004
J-10 = 300 to be build aprox (altleast 50 by 2005)

Future fighers to look for from China:
Super-7?FC-1 (developed with Pakistan)
F-7MF (Yes the J-7 is back and looking like a F-16)
J-XX

BOMBER/ATTACK
Q-5 = 600 or so (not sure)
JH-7 = not in service
H-5 = few most out of service
H-6 = ~120
H-6D = around a dozen

Possible aircraft:
Su-34 = 30-40

TRANSPORT:
Tu-154M = 16
CRJ-200BLR = 5 (possibly more bought later on)
737 = ~6
767 = 1 (Chinese Air force One)
Y-5 = ~1000 (That is the amount build)
Y-7 = ~100
Y-8 = ~100
IL-76 = ?? more may be bought

SPECIAL PURPOSES:
H-6(TANKER) = 10
HD-5 (EW) = ??
Tu-154MD (EW) = 1
Y-8 (AEW) = 8
Y-8 (MPA) = 4-6
SH-5 = ~6
An-30 (photo) = small number

FUTURE:
AWACS = future possilby form a Y-8

TRAINERS:
CJ-6 = unkonwn but a large number (over 10,000 build both as CJ-6 and Jak-18 )
JJ-5 = unkown, still inservice
JJ-7 = unkown
JJ-8 = few dozen

FUTURE:
JL-9

HELICOPTERS: more then 700 flying

NAVY:
Z-8 = ~30
Z-9C = unkown prob 50
Ka-28 = 8~10

ARMY:
Z-11 = ~20
Sa-342 = 8 bought for test ans evalutation in late 80's
Z-9 = ~100
WZ-9 = 40~60
Mi-8 = ?? not in the front lines
S-70C = 20-15 (bad condtion)
Mi-17 = ~150

FUTURE:
WZ-10
Z-X

_________________


August 2nd 2003
The 110th Anniversary of Yugolsaivan Aviation!
St. Elias the gardian of the Fighter pilot.

Tell me doesn't this look like a F-16?



Damn that MiG-21/J-7 look good.

_________________


August 2nd 2003
The 110th Anniversary of Yugolsaivan Aviation!
St. Elias the gardian of the Fighter pilot.

There was a MiG-21 project in the late 1960s that resembles this chinese aircraft. It was a Fishbed with a chin inlet and a huge radar(for the fishbed) in the new nose.

High AOA capabilities and one of the new trumsky high thrust engines gave it in excess of 9Gs, but the airframe simply could not support the fuel or hardpoints to make the development worthwhile and they killed the project. Now how many times have you heard of the old Soviets killing any projects that help promise or were cost effective? Never...

We'll maybe the Chinese have dicovered somthing new, I mean there has been some 40 years pass. But I love the fact that they are keepin the lil basters flying.

_________________


August 2nd 2003
The 110th Anniversary of Yugolsaivan Aviation!
St. Elias the gardian of the Fighter pilot.

Yeah, it's kinda like an aviation muesum. But I for one wouldn't love it if they took the "lil basters" and used them in an invasion of Taiwan.

_________________


allah no longer exists, for I have killed him. You must worship me instead.