Zephyr Net

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There is one 15E set up with the weasle package at nellis. It kicked the 16s a$$ everywhich way until sundown just costed a lot more. look into it i did. I crewed the4s and out the last ones in the bone yard. And if the cj is so much better than the f-4g why during Vigalant Warrior (in 94) were we sent back in and the 16s sat on the ground for the duration. could it be frying circut cards. Plus wouldnt you rather have a 2 seater weasel. to much for one person to do.


get muddy



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Im really going to love turning your arrogant assumptions inside out on this one. You want to argue with an experianced Combat Weasel Driver, well here we go...

lets get the Facts Straight Shall we

The F15E you are refering to was a test Concept to integrate the F15's Precision Direction Finding (PDF)and HTS target Pod. Guess what the Concept Failed. I would Know I was a Test Pilot-Engineer in the Program. A fielded HTS system could not be integrated into the F15e without severely starting from the ground up and redesigning the systems, and or trying to integrate a new system from scratch.

Next. The idea of 2 seats is highly bogus at best. THE F16 (JETS)HTS System does not require a WSO. Their is no system for him to operate. The CJ System even outperforms the EA6B 4 man Crew and 2Man Viking Crew. I know this too BTDT!

The F4G's weapon systems layout severely lacking in so many ways. To decipher, Track Multiple Ground Targets. Its RWR Threat Warning System sets were Archaic. It was a dinosaur that need to be put down.

The F-4 can only pull 7G in sustained turns, which was acceptable for the 60's time, it can only do so by rapidly bleeding off energy (losing speed and/or altitude) the Transient Ability of the F-4 to change its maneuver (that is, to roll rapidly while pulling high Gs) was poor. Weaseling is a high G enviroment that the F4 cannot survive without burning off all its fuel, Secondly it cannot accelerate to the speeds an F16 can. Next is the aspect angle of the aircraft. a Soldier on the ground can pick it up visually from over 30nm away.

You will not see an f16 until after its bombs have gone off in your face, and thats only after it has pulled out of a dive.

Their is no room in a weasel enviroment for a "air Crew Commitee."

We utilise differnt SEAD warfighting methods now that make the 2 aircrew force feedback system obsolete. Whats the Backseater going to do? Give the enemy the finger while hes trying to get a dinasaur slow inefficient system to sh00t the ducks while the pilot is rowing the boat finding a safe spot in the sky.

Its better to have several weasels to hunt like a pack of wolves datalinked together seeing the overall battle and players unfold this is proper force feedback in a combat enviroment.

Let me tell you first hand Weaseling in the Balkans required a whole new understanding of a SEAD application. The terrain was Hostile and blind. The surface threats systems were better, and the Crews were better than our past advesaries. Fly over a mountain blind and oblivious to a threat, Into the emitter, to be fired on immediatly with no warning but a lock and Inbound threat. An f4's acceleration and 7g limitation will not save it. It is a lost cause . The F4 G was a Sniper and detection system, it was well suited hanging back 30-20 miles and sending the F16 or an A10 in to do the dirty work. It doesnt have the ability work in the passive detection and launch threat of today.

The F4 Airframe no matter what systems are put into it is a Death Wish in todays SEAD enviroment.

Now lets talk the F16 Block 50/52 CJ/DJ.

The new System employs ALQ-119 Electronic Jamming Pod for self protection. F-18s and EA-6Bs are HARM capable, the F-16 provides the ability to use the HARM in its most effective mode with the Joint Emitter Targeting System (JETS), which facilitates the use of HARM's most effective mode when launched from any JETS capable aircraft.

Secondly The F4G required the EF111 Raven to provide Jamming Protection. And above all another F16 Block 40 MIDS linked system during the F16-F4G Hunter killer Era. To manuever and kill the threats.

Now all we have left is the EA6B Prowler, S-3 Viking and some Special Mission C-130s that have taken on this Jammer mission.

Now you want to go into the What happaned in 94 Episode. Very Simple Explanation 91-93 Build F16 Block 50 Cj's with a new improved system that was designed procured in 4 years and put in service, from the Lessons learned during the "20 year F4 Weasel Development era that later included the F16-F4 Data Link system." Imagine that a New system that needs bugs worked out of it. Every aircraft on the flightline today experiances this. We still havnt seen the F22 and F-35 put into service have we?

Systems fail when they enter service. Nothing new. They took a 2 man System and reduced it to a pod and a integration to the 16s Avionics.

Sure the F16CJ needs to be improved, but it has nothing to do with the F4. It all has to do with the evolving SAM technology that are hitting the Battlefield and being field tested in countries we have and are haveing Combat operations against. That means more lethal, better detecting, better manuevering, and harder backdoor hitting weapons being fielded.

Lets discuss angles and arcs..

Self protection Defensive manuevering....


Simple physics.

F=m*a, right? Nearly every pilot is familiar with that equation. are you Koobster?

For a turning aircraft (missle or plane) the radial acceleration is a=(V^2)/R. The tighter the turn (R), the higher the accelleration. Mass is constant, so the tighter the turn the higher the force required to maintain the turn.

Note also, that the accelleration goes as the SQUARE of velocity. Double the speed, QUADRUPLE the force required to maintain the turn.

Now, realize that the amount of lift force that the plane can produce to maintain a turn is directly proportional to the area of the wings & controll surfaces of the aircraft.

Now think about the size of the "wings" on a missle.

Now think about the size of the wings on an f16.

No way in HELL a SAM can out-turn a viper, especially considering that suppression fights pretty much NEVER take place at supersonic speeds, but missles are almost always supersonic when they reach their target.

Granted, some missles weigh a lot less than a f16, but the relative size of the control surfaces of an sam, combined with the enormous speeds at which they travel, means that their turning radius is HUGE. What they can do, is make SMALL adjustments very quickly (low mass, low momentum, easy to change direction (slightly) in a short amount of time)

The ability of a missle to keep a lock on a fighter jet is due to the rate of closure. A pilot has to react WAY before the missle is upon him. Therefore the missle can react to the pilot with plenty of space to make a wide turn. Wide turns are all that can be made by a missle with a few square feet of control surface area, going Mach 3.

However, at 200 to 400 knots (the speed at which much of air combat maneuvering takes place) a viper (or hornet, Eagle, Tomcat, Tornado, Mirage, whathaveyou) can make a much tighter turn than a missle could ever hope to make. 9 to 12 g's If a pilot can make such a tight turn at the right time, i.e. after the missle has closed to a range such that it can't pull lead on the aircrafts trajectory, but before the missle has closed to a range that the viper will not be out of the way before impact, then he will out maneuver the missle.

Thing is, this window of opportunity is very small: less than a second. A pilot is much better off using countermeasures (flares, chaff) in conjunction with such a manuever. Then the tracking device of the missle is fooled long enough that it doesn't correct its path until the viper is already out of the missle's range.

No sam will "loop around" and re-acquire their target, as a torpedo does. They simply don't have enough fuel, given how LARGE their turning radius is for a "loop around". Any target re-acquisition abilities that these missiles have is for tracking while still on path to the target, (i.e. the missle has not PASSED by the target already) say, if lock is lost due to countermeasures, weather, ETC...

So again...what place does the F4 have in Suppresion warfare.....
If you want to maintain that argument. lets scrap the F16s... Add a butload of rotary racks to a C-130, C-141, C-5, C-17 your DHL dash-8 Rental, pack it full of WSO operators with nintendo controllers and play the ...Long TTI game, back in the rear of the battle.

The point im makeing. Manueverability, Speed, weapons and Electronics is what is going to kill sams.

Even if today it requires a light weight bantum fighter carrying a "Weasel in a can" and or playing rope a dope while an A10 comes in from the kitchen back door and Cooks the Turkey!

The F-4 can only pull 7G in sustained turns, which was acceptable for the 60's time, it can only do so by rapidly bleeding off energy (losing speed and/or altitude) the Transient Ability of the F-4 to change its maneuver (that is, to roll rapidly while pulling high Gs) was poor. Weaseling is a high G enviroment that the F4 cannot survive without burning off all its fuel, Secondly it cannot accelerate to the speeds an F16 can. Next is the aspect angle of the aircraft. a Soldier on the ground can pick it up visually from over 30nm away.

The new System employs ALQ-119 Electronic Jamming Pod for self protection. F-18s and EA-6Bs are HARM capable, the F-16 provides the ability to use the HARM in its most effective mode with the Joint Emitter Targeting System (JETS), which facilitates the use of HARM's most effective mode when launched from any JETS capable aircraft.

Secondly The F4G required the EF111 Raven to provide Jamming Protection. And above all another F16 Block 40 MIDS linked system during the F16-F4G Hunter killer Era. To manuever and kill the threats.

However, at 200 to 400 knots (the speed at which much of air combat maneuvering takes place) a viper (or hornet, Eagle, Tomcat, Tornado, Mirage, whathaveyou) can make a much tighter turn than a missle could ever hope to make. 9 to 12 g's If a pilot can make such a tight turn at the right time, i.e. after the missle has closed to a range such that it can't pull lead on the aircrafts trajectory, but before the missle has closed to a range that the viper will not be out of the way before impact, then he will out maneuver the missle.