Zephyr Net

Here's to the contrary from http://www.stormpages.com/jetfight/q-5_jh-7_h-6.htm







They're actually collecting pictures of serial numbers here: http://www.stormpages.com/jetfight/gallery.htm

I had two pictures showing a serial number from each set but the site doesn't allow hotlinking, even just cut & pasted URLs.

Zephyr

Hi,

CAG,
First things first, learn to open your mind to new thoughts and ideas, its as if, you are convinced that the MiG sucks and that it'll lose and no amount of arguing on my pasrt can change that(if that IS the case, then there is no point in wasting bandwidth).
Never did I raise any point about any sort of pilot shortage in PLAAF.

Have you ever looked at the border map between India and PRChina?
Well if yes, then you'll know that it is almost fully filled with mountains, through which radars cannot see, a well planned GCI/AWACS intercept can surprise any other plane, be it F 16 Blk 60 or and Su 30 MKK.
And a MiG 21 versus a Su 30 MKK (loaded with X 59s, and KAB 500/1000s with a full fuel load(9 tons or so) cant do much maneuvering), with the MiG loaded only with a centerline fuel tank and 2 R 73s is very much 'in the game'.
MiGs will be lost, but not before getting quite a few close in kills themselves.

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http://13vultures.tripod.com,

Centurian's
http://www.theforsakenoutlaw.com/main.htm

Realy the JH-7 is in service?

Last I checked there were problems with the engines and there was talk of canceling the project in the early 90's. In 1998 they were getting new Roll-Royce engines or something of that kind.

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August 2nd 2003
The 110th Anniversary of Yugolsaivan Aviation!
St. Elias the gardian of the Fighter pilot.

Yes the JH-7 is indeed in service! It has replaced the older H-5 bombers and is continuing to do so...

Yes there are mountians in west and south west China, yes the Chinese are hot after improved AWACs capabilites specificially to defeat these types of low level attacks.

No the MiG-21 will not make kills...

1) THe R-73, while an excellent dogfight missile, does not have the range necessary to achieve kills against FLankers. It is a dogfight missile and the Fishbeds will all die at BVR ranges.

2) The Phazetron radars on the SU-30s have quite alot of power and excellent 'look down' capability to locate and destroy the Fishbeds.

3) The MiG-21, even with a centerline tank, will not have the range to fly low and then engage the SU-30s in combat. Fuel consumption by the Fishbed at low level is excessive and will not allow such a flight profile against such a highly capable adversary in anything but point defense of specific targets, which the Flanker can defeat with long range weapons such as its Kh-31 missiles...

I do not have a closed mind... I just do not use an 'open mind' excuse to ignore the cold hard facts of reality or to be politicially correct, which is what you are doing by supporting your countries decision to attempt to upgrade an inefficient out of date and incapable aircraft and expect it to stand up to modern threats at the cost of the lives of those who are unlucky enough to be piloting them...

CAG out...

Well the Fishbed could still have some use, if they are used like the Chinese planners are considering. In co-ordination with other more advance aircraft in Hi-lo style attacks. They could still prove useful againt ground attack aircraft and transports. It would be like in the battle of Britain when the Hurracanes attack the Bombers and the spitfire attacked the fighters.

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August 2nd 2003
The 110th Anniversary of Yugolsaivan Aviation!
St. Elias the gardian of the Fighter pilot.

Except in this scenario the Bombers would be attacking the Hurricanes, if you ever tried to actively intercept SU-30s with MiG-21s...


When are you going to wake up and 'get it'??

You can not expect 30 to 40 year old technology to survive in the face of modern technology...

Ok if I am not mistaken you your self have said that the Chinese are converting (or going to use) J-7 as groud attakc aircraft, along with J-6 and Q-5, they would no doubt be used in such a role. So if the Mirages were to take the Su's the MiG-21's would be able to take on someone more their size.

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August 2nd 2003
The 110th Anniversary of Yugolsaivan Aviation!
St. Elias the gardian of the Fighter pilot.

There is another role these old migs could be used for. If there was a war and China was in it. They could use these older planes as the cannon fodder to attract the first volley of missiles while the newer fighters followed and engage.

Then why get them updated??

They are a wait of money as it is. If you are goin to waist more money on then you might as well let then fight a enemy they are able to tackle.

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August 2nd 2003
The 110th Anniversary of Yugolsaivan Aviation!
St. Elias the gardian of the Fighter pilot.

The J-6 is going away... The J-7 is also soon to follow, but is being adapted for ground attack(more flexible weapons loads) to allow continued training of attack pilots. It is not desinged to be used as a lead attack fighter. Even the Q-5 is more advanced in this type of combat then the J-7...

All these aircraft are slated for full replacement. What do you think will happen to India when they realize they are facing increased numbers of Flankers with MiG-21s? Why not scrap them and buy more Sukhois themselves? Or perhaps some used M2000s? atleast those birds have combat presence...

Or buy more MiG-23s from storage in Russia.. Those are pennies on the dollar! and much more effective then the Fishbed..

Well they are getting rid of them, and in the mean time China still uses J-6 and 7 there for if war was to break out tommrow no doubt will they fly into action. I am talking about the current situation and not what will be in few years. I agree India must get new jets quick, china is getting more advanced as days go on and India is being left behind.

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August 2nd 2003
The 110th Anniversary of Yugolsaivan Aviation!
St. Elias the gardian of the Fighter pilot.

Well considering that the 'upgrade' on the MiGs will also not be instantenous and not be flying in a 'war today' this entire string seems to be redundant...

Wellthe MiG are like the Brazilian carrier there are just ther, they got no realy use agaits modern weopons but are there to keep the airfoce nubers up, untill new better jet come. THe are almost for show, although the update will give them an edge over other aircraft of their age, they are a gap filler.

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August 2nd 2003
The 110th Anniversary of Yugolsaivan Aviation!
St. Elias the gardian of the Fighter pilot.

Then why spend on them? Your arguement has never made and never will make any sense..

They are cannon fodder, so why spend on them? And have you asked the actual pilots what they think about flying something that has no chance to survive?

Ok I'll use the F-15 as a example for this point, ok we all know that the F-22 is here to replace the F-15, and the F-15 will not be retired untill the F-22 enters service in substancial numbers, because that will leave the USAF at a disadvantage. The migs are there untill the LCA comes into service to replace them, as I said they are no match for a modern Su fighter, but they could nock out Q-5 and J-7 on groud attack missions.

And CAG I will ask a MIG-21 pilot about how he felt about flying the jet, hell I'll ask 3 and a groud attack pilot when I got back to visit nexy year.

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August 2nd 2003
The 110th Anniversary of Yugolsaivan Aviation!
St. Elias the gardian of the Fighter pilot.