Zephyr Net

CQB = Close Quarters Battle...

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"Smile, AMRAAMs love you!"
"May the PATRIOTS down the FROGS!"
1Lt. Centurian57_76/369th

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The tactics as explained to me by Active Test Pilots, when I worked at the NASA Wind Tunnels as a model maker in mid 90's, was when engageing Mig-29 do not let airspeed go below 300 and try to maintain some Alt. Because the Mig-29 for all it's looks is more like a Mustang GT than a Corvette, its surface detail and finish causes it not to be quite as slippery as it looks. But it packs a real punch comeing out of the hole, but kinda drops off when it hits 4th gear so to say like my Stang because thats when the aerodynamic "don'ts" start to show their ugly faces, and the Vette handily strides past the 135 mph aerodynamic barrier (approx conditions vary).

That was then, now that we,ve had a closer look at em I can't argue the point, cause I have not seen any more current flight profiles than circa 94'. And that was from top of the line test aircraft, prep'ed for optimum performance and data, under ideal conditions and controled enviorments both tunnel and flightline.
So I guess now I know, but it's still cheap and easy to produce, it's got that going for it.



P.S.
I have to add this in light of comparisions made useing the Gulf to compare Planes ....

"When two planes fight, the more experienced Pilot will win every time, regaurdless the aircraft envolved."

Col. Bud Anderson

from to Fly and Fight

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"cool beanz"
D. "FETCH" Jordan

I dont know how true that is anymore.

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August 2nd 2003
The 110th Anniversary of Yugolsaivan Aviation!
St. Elias the gardian of the Fighter pilot.

Bold statement.
Good observation,
worthy of more discussion on a string devoted to BVR vs Dogfight.
Because with todays tech. You have a strong point upon reflection, of that quote.

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"cool beanz"
D. "FETCH" Jordan

Ok heres is my reasoning.

During the 1999 kosovo conflict 6 MiG-29's were shotdown, most of the pilots in that squadron were verterans with 10 plus years of MiG-29 flight hours under their belts, some also had MiG-21 experience as well as numorous other jets. Yet two were killed in combat, by pilots with far less expirience.

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August 2nd 2003
The 110th Anniversary of Yugolsaivan Aviation!
St. Elias the gardian of the Fighter pilot.

There were quite a few MiG-29s downed in the 1st Gulf War by F-15s and F/A-18s.

The only American jet shot down in an air-to-air battle was an F/A-18 by a MiG-25 IIRC.

But the F-15 completely overwhelmed everything it faced.

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allah no longer exists, for I have killed him. You must worship me instead.

So ....
Would it be better to say,
When two planes fight, the more tech. advanced Pilot will win, regaurdless of aircraft envolved. ......

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"cool beanz"
D. "FETCH" Jordan

Well that could be true if the playing the field was even. In all situations the Us has been involved it has had numerical edge as well as techincal. In Kosovo it was estimated to be something of 27:1 in favour of the NATO allies on top of the technological edge.

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August 2nd 2003
The 110th Anniversary of Yugolsaivan Aviation!
St. Elias the gardian of the Fighter pilot.

We don't beat around the bush.......

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allah no longer exists, for I have killed him. You must worship me instead.

I dont get you response.

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August 2nd 2003
The 110th Anniversary of Yugolsaivan Aviation!
St. Elias the gardian of the Fighter pilot.

Again another usefull post.
So with that being the fact, your right, that quote is no longer a valid statement.
Here's my thinking now, if the badest pilot on earth, jumped into an unsupport Mig-29, no amount of "Pilot Skill" could offset, the advantage of in a situation like that.
No way it would be suicide, minutes, it would be just minutes before you'd be shot down.

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"cool beanz"
D. "FETCH" Jordan

Yes mu point is that in Iraq as well as in Kosovo the advantage was on the side of the Allies look at kosovo only 14 fighters and not even combat capable.

If you reffer to my post on Su-34 Flanker about iraq you can see that their airfrce only had 24 MiG-29 and 94 Mirage F1's modern jets. 25 MiG-25 semi modern and 90 older MiG-23 and 150 MiG-21 that could not do much.
Out of thouse 118 modern jets some 28-30 a quater flead to Iran. Out of 25 Mig-25 also 7 flead. The odds were againts the enemy pilots. No fair fight.

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August 2nd 2003
The 110th Anniversary of Yugolsaivan Aviation!
St. Elias the gardian of the Fighter pilot.

This topic has been discussed alot by authors and I think many would say situational awareness is the most important. He who sees first, survives. Either by killing the enemy or evading a situation he cannot win. In the old days this relied heavily on the experience of the pilot in using his eyes and wingmen, and early radar to see the enemy first. Now I think it is relying more and more on the technology involved be it radar, AWACS, satellites, etc. With the best situational awareness (SA), one can get in position for kill opportunities. So a MiG-29 with an A-50 Mainstay and GCI vectoring him around, fighting relatively blind or limited sighted enemies, would in fact be lethal.

Back to the original impetus for this discussion, the F-15 has been so successful because a number of factors converged, one of which is the excellence of the aircraft itself, to provide its pilots with the best SA and opportunities for kills.

Zephyr

Nope, a quick check of ACIG.org and every MiG-29 kill in Desert Storm was with a Sparrow except one manuever kill. After the war two were shot down in the No Fly Zone with AMRAAMs.

Zephyr

My point exacly Zeph. Yes the aircraft counts a great deal but the support systems behind it maybe of greater importance. To say an aircraft is bad or useless because it has faced unbeatable odds and has lacked proper support is wrong. Yes the MiG-29 has not skored a kill againt the US fighters, but we must look at who has used this aircraft an what support systems were behind it before we render an aircraft obsolite.

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August 2nd 2003
The 110th Anniversary of Yugolsaivan Aviation!
St. Elias the gardian of the Fighter pilot.