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PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2003 22:19 pm 
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F-4G without a weasel replacement was dumber IMO

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2003 11:00 am 
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rgrt, I like SEAD missions best myself.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2003 18:22 pm 
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Nothing like going up against an SA-10 site with 144 missiles bearing down on you.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2003 18:57 pm 
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Please!! What is wrong with you people! Only a fool would think you can win a battle with a damn SEAD aircraft! THe F-111 was by far the most effective bomber the USAF ever had in service! It accounted for over 80% of all successful strikes in Desert Storm! It was the 'big stick' that caused Kudaffi in Libya to stop his mindless babble and supporting terrorists. She 'plinked' more tanks then the A-10, F-16 and F-15E combined...

Even achieved a maneuver kill when an unarmed EF-111 caused an Iraqi Mirage F-1 to lawn dart trying to engage her...

The F-111 was also a strategic bomber capable of carrying SRAM and gravity H bombs and stood alert throughout the cold war! It was the only aircraft in the us inventory taht was able to fly supersonic on the deck at 50 feet with a full load of weapons. on its revolving pylons and in the bombay...

What could the F-4G do? Fly around and shoot at SAMs that are effectively shut down nowadays with ECM and towed decoys.. Whoptie do!

No way the F-4G was anything compared to the ardvark! An aircraft that still has not been replaced nearly 7 years after it was retired!


The F-4G was a great aircraft, but you can not compare one single aircraft type's effect on all of combat when you are comparing it to the most effective strike weapon the USAF ever had...

CAG out...


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2003 19:00 pm 
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Centurian wrote:
Nothing like going up against an SA-10 site with 144 missiles bearing down on you.


Cent, just so you know... The F-4G was not equipped to defeat the SA-10 missile system. THe F-4G was effective agasint the older range of SAMs then it was ever capable of handling a system like the Grumble...


The -F16CJ is onlymarginally less effective agasint this type of threat. The SAM far out ranges anything we have in the inventory to directly attack it..

It would not have mattered one whit if it was an F-4G or and F-16CJ that had the strike. They would both easily detect its radar signature by the mere fact of the massive power of its billboard type Air defense radar...

CAG out...


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2003 19:09 pm 
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CAG Hotshot wrote:
Please!! What is wrong with you people! Only a fool would think you can win a battle with a damn SEAD aircraft! THe F-111 was by far the most effective bomber the USAF ever had in service! It accounted for over 80% of all successful strikes in Desert Storm! It was the 'big stick' that caused Kudaffi in Libya to stop his mindless babble and supporting terrorists. She 'plinked' more tanks then the A-10, F-16 and F-15E combined...

Even achieved a maneuver kill when an unarmed EF-111 caused an Iraqi Mirage F-1 to lawn dart trying to engage her...

The F-111 was also a strategic bomber capable of carrying SRAM and gravity H bombs and stood alert throughout the cold war! It was the only aircraft in the us inventory taht was able to fly supersonic on the deck at 50 feet with a full load of weapons. on its revolving pylons and in the bombay...

What could the F-4G do? Fly around and shoot at SAMs that are effectively shut down nowadays with ECM and towed decoys.. Whoptie do!

No way the F-4G was anything compared to the ardvark! An aircraft that still has not been replaced nearly 7 years after it was retired!


The F-4G was a great aircraft, but you can not compare one single aircraft type's effect on all of combat when you are comparing it to the most effective strike weapon the USAF ever had...

CAG out...


the most effective strike weapon the USAF ever had was the B-52. It first flew in 1952, it's retirement date (estimated) is 2045.

That's a bad ass machine there- and symbolizes American power more than the F-15, the F-16, the F-4, the F-111, and the F-14.

It was our big bomber in NAM, GW1, Bosnia, Kosovo, Afghanistan, and now in GW2.

And it's expected to last till 2045, know any other plane that's been in our arsenal for 51 years with some 40 more years of life left?

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2003 19:41 pm 
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Neg... mostly the B-52 hit nothing but dirt, mud, and sand...

The F-111 has more air to ground kills, more combat miles flown(not including to and from teh theater, though the flight to attack Libya sure was a long one!), more enemy airspace penetrated, and less losses then the B-52 by a wide margin!

All the B-52 is now is a cruise missile carrier... She never penetrates enemy airspace anylonger. You could get the same effectiveness out of a C-5 if put a rotary rack in her for cruise missile launches and a GPS interface terminal for programming.

The reason she will be in the fleet until the mid 2000s isnt necessarily her effectiveness as ther is so much life left in the airframes due to so few missions flown.

The F-111 is still a competitent airspace 1st day strike aircraft. You try to fly a B-52 into North Korea today and see what happens...


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2003 19:56 pm 
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the B-52s delivered massive bomb loads over North Vietnam, Iraq (in both wars, not just with cruise missiles), and they'e doing it in Afghanistan. The B-52s are the ones blasting these ji-had caves / rat holes.

The B-52 symbolizes America- it was our #1 on call nuclear bomber during the Cold War, And has served in every American conflict since it entered service.

Even though it mainly fires cruise missiles today- it can still pack a bigger punch than the F-111........

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2003 20:57 pm 
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The B-52 has been the most successful of any USAF aircraft and it shall continue that way. She can fire Harpoons, drop any bomb short of the Durandal and LGBs, but can drop GPS, can put 51 bombs on a jihad johnny cave, and it still does peentrate airabse...great for runway destruction, 51 bombs...fwew!

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PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2003 12:06 pm 
Over Vietnam the mighty B-52 didnt hit shit until Linebacker II in 1972 and at the cost of 30% of the strike force. The B-52 carpet bombed the 'Trail' and around the besiged Marines at Kae Sahn (sp?) but it was never proven they hit anything.

During desert storm it did much damage with its heavy strikes. B-52s flew 1,624 missions, dropped 72,000 weapons (totaling more than 25,700 tons) on targets in Kuwait and southern Iraq, and on airfields, industrial targets and storage areas in Iraq.

The B-52 is a great aircraft, but the F-111 was actually a much more effective combat aircraft.

With its Forward Looking Infrared Radar (FLIR) and laser designation system, F-111F's attacked chemical, biological and nuclear sites. The aircraft also attacked airfields, bunkers, command, control and communications facilities, and parts of the integrated air defense system with great success. F-111F's flew more than 4,000 sorties in Desert Storm and only one was damaged by enemy air defenses. F-111s accounted for more damage to these command centers then all other aircraft strikes combined.

The 18 EF-111 Ravens deployed in support of Desert Storm flew more than 900 sorties. Effective jamming by EF-111s negated the Iraqis' ability to track, acquire, and target attacking aircraft. 1 Iraqi Mirage was credited destroyed to an EF-111 in a 'maneuver kill'

The 48 F-4G Wild Weasels deployed to the theater in support of Desert Storm flew 2,500 sorties. As a testament to the effectiveness of the F-4G's with their high-speed anti-radar missiles (HARM), the Iraqis did not use their sector operations centers and radars because if a system was on for more than a few seconds, operators risked the return of a HARM missile.

And as a direct comparison to all these aircraft...

The Air Force sent 144 A-10s to the theater. While flying only 30 percent of the Air Force's total sorties, these aircraft achieved more than half of the confirmed Iraqi equipment losses and fired 90 percent of the precision-guided Maverick missiles launched during Desert Storm. They demonstrated versatility as daytime Scud hunters in Iraq and even recorded two helicopter kills with their 30mm guns. Although A-10s flew more than 8,000 sorties in Desert Storm, only five were lost in combat in a very high-threat environment.

The F-16 proved itself to be a versatile aircraft able to attack targets both day and night, in good or bad weather. The Air Force's 249 F-16s deployed to the Gulf flew more than 13,450 sorties -- more than any other aircraft in the war. They attacked Iraqi equipment in Kuwait and southern Iraq, flew missions against Scud missiles and launchers, and destroyed interdiction targets such as military production and support, chemical production facilities, and airfields.

The F-16s further performance during Operation Deny FLight included multiple Iraqi airdefense radar site kills with HARM and command HQ kills with guided precision weapons. Also credited was the first destruction of an enemy aircraft with a AIM-120 AMRAAM missile, as an F-16 downed an Iraqi MiG over the southern No FLy Zone...

So essentially the B-52 and the F-111 are both great aircraft. They both contributed heavily to USAF structure.. However the F-111 is still a capable aircraft for penetrating active airdefenses like those in North Korea. The B-52 isnt. You can not use the BUFF to attack enemy infrastructure until you have eliminated all airdefenses and associated radars plus the enemies airforce. The F-111 doesnt have these requirements. The Ardvark can go 'on the deck' at over Mach 1 to target with a full load or either dumb or guided weapons and carry sidewinders for self defense. It is quite capable at flying at 50' suersonically with monitoring of its tercom system by the pilot.

The Airforce has the B-1 and the B-2 to do the BUFFs old penetration job..

The F-15E has been shown to not have the same potential at low level incursion as the Ardvark did. While a good aircraft, flying 'in the weeds' is not an option for the Strike Eagle as it gets beatup at low altitude and is speed limited due to its design. While a great bird itself, it isnt a real replacement for the F-111. Its range, with a warload, does not approach that of the Arvark either.

The USAF does not have sufficient forces now, due to the F-111 retirements, to effectively project power 'anywhere at anytime' in the tactical role...

The F-4G did nto even come close to performing the massive number of different missions the varks did...

However if you had originally said all F4s... that MAY have illicited a different response! :wink:


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PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2003 12:48 pm 
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Sorry the above message was by me... :oops:

Here is a bit more...

The F-111F had improved turbofan engines give F-111F models 35 percent more thrust than previous F-111A and E engines. The avionics systems of the F model combine features of the F-111D and E. The last F model was delivered to the Air Force in November 1976. The F models were modified to carry the all-weather AN/AVQ-26 Pave Tack system in their weapons bays. This system provides an improved capability to acquire, track and designate ground targets at night for delivery of laser, infrared and electro-optically guided weapons. In 1986, the F-111F was used during El Dorado Canyon, the raid on Libya, and bombed five targets in retaliation for terrorist attacks. It also played a major role in the Persian Gulf War, flying more than 4000 missions. Pre-air campaign mission plans for the F-111F focused on low-altitude air interdiction against strategic targets, such as airfields, radar sites, and chemical weapons bunkers. However, like all other aircraft, almost all Desert Storm missions were conducted at medium-to-high altitude. Another deviation from pre-Desert Storm mission planning for the F-111F were LGB strikes against tanks commonly referred to after the war as "tank plinking." The F-111F night "tank plinking" strikes using 500 lb. GBU-12 laser-guided bombs were particularly deadly. On February 9, for example, in one night of concentrated air attacks, forty F-111F's destroyed over 100 armored vehicles. Overall, the small 66-plane F-111F force was credited with 1,500 kills of Iraqi tanks and other mechanized vehicles. The F-111F was the only Desert Storm aircraft to deliver the GBU-15 and the 5,000-pound laser-guided, penetrating GBU-28. 2 GBU-28s were dropped by 2 F-111F Aardvarks on a command and control bunker in Baghdad only days before the ceasefire. One missed its mark (because of faulty laser spotting), the other penetrated, destroying the bunker. Although F-111F's flew primarily at night during Operation Desert Storm, aircrews flew a particularly notable daytime mission using the Guided Bomb Unit (GBU-15) to seal the oil pipeline manifold sabotaged by Iraq, allowing the oil to flow into the Persian Gulf. In 1994 the 524th Fighter Squadron became the only F-111F unit to convert to Pacer Strike modified F-111F aircraft, which incorporates a global positioning satellite system and ring laser gyro into its avionics suite.


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PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2003 23:52 pm 
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regarding HARM vs Grumble, the Pentagon believes the SA-10 system can shoot down the HARM missle from as much as 20 miles away, it's a nasty system and one of the reasons we need to get JASSM online soon.

BTW I'm almost sure I was reading in Av-Week a while ago that B-52s were dropping LGBs in either Iraq or Afghanland. In ODS they were contemplating using B-52s as bomb trucks carrying GBU-12s and letting the F-111 do the dezing, for massive tank plinking, but the war was over before they could get to it.

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PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2003 08:46 am 
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B-52s were used for dropping intelligent cluster bombs in Iraqi Freedom.


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PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2003 14:40 pm 
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That's what I'm sayin- the B-52 is the bomber that has come to symbolize America. It first flew in 1952, and it's expected to go out 2045. It has seen nearly the entire jet age and still has some 40 years left.

It was also our front line nuclear bomber, and is without question the best heavy bomber in the world (non stealth). The Russians never made anything as good and reliable as the B-52. After all- none of their planes have been service for 50 years.....

But if the Russians or whoever would have used the bomb during the Cold War, it would have been the B-52s that would have responded (atleast before the ICBMs came in)

Don't get me wrong CAG- I still like the F-111, it's my favorite attack plane behind the A-10. But I just think the B-52 is the better bomber, cause it actually is a bomber :wink:

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PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2003 17:45 pm 
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thanks Tank , but this was specifically about Buffs dropping LGBs, I'll try and find it.

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