Zephyr Net

I just read a comment on orkut (and checked the info) about Brazilian Air Force joinned the Russian Program for a 5th generation Fighter (PAK-FA). The Brazilian Defense Minister Mangabeira Unguer confirmed the information, and announced that Brazil would join the development program as a major partner (in a deal worth US$ 80 billion dollars divided in four years i think), having access to technology of building some parts of the plane. When i was reading other post, i saw many comments about the low quality (compared to US military materials) of russian equipament. I´m not shure about this...many articles that i read lately treat the russian equipament as a "state of the art". Anyway...did you guys have any information about this PAK-FA program...

Hehe we'll see about that "about to" part. The PAK-FA's first flight is scheduled for "early 2009" but that date has slipped in the past. Most artist's depictions show it appearing very F-22 like in configuration. That is a safe design for stealth, maneuverability (coupled with thrust vectoring), and speed, all things the Russians proclaim a 5th generation fighter should have. Many of the electronic systems being developed for the PAK-FA will be installed first on the new Su-35, should a customer want that aircraft. I believe the RuAF will be buying the new Su-35 as an interim fighter until the the PAK-FA (also called T-50 by Sukhoi) is ready.

As far as how state of the art it is, that can be very hotly debated. But the Indian Su-30MKIs with a mix of Russian, French, Israeli, and Indian avionics, together with the big, robust baseline capabilities of the Flanker, are considered among the best fighters in the world. So if India follows that route with their "T-50MKIs" then their version at least will be something not to underestimate. Weapons wise, the Russians say the aircraft will carry weapons internally, including long range ones. Maybe either the R-37M Arrow or the gigantic K-172 (hard to believe that can be internal).






Zephyr

Yeah, but some sources in the Brazilian Defense Ministery suggested that the aircraft should be in test flight by 2011/2012. I´m not saying this is true, but i doubt that FAB (Brazilian ir Force) would go and aprove a partnership without getting some real garanties about the true state of the PAK-FA development. In fact the first contacts between Brazil and Russia, conserning the PAK-FA program where made in 2006 (and not 2007, as said in the international press), and a tough negotiation toke place. Russian equipament is (or was; since 2006/2007, many news according to possible deals between FAB and Rosoboronexport have been circulating the media) very unpopular in FAB, (we have a long tradition in buying and operating french and american equipament) and doubtless, the choice of this model, intead of Grippen (ofered to us, basicaly in the same terms of the PAK-FA), the Rafaele or even a hipotetical aquisition of the eurofighter or F-35, is an important clue about the progress of the project, dont you think? In fact, FAB developed much in the eighties and the early ninethies, and since 1995, they are very aware and have a great sense for future deals (Just look at the F-5BR, the R-99, C-390 and the Mirage 2000, all of then in partnership with EMBRAER). And about the avionics and eletronics systems, i think that Brazil would not have many troubles. French and Israeli equipament isn´t that hard to acquire (in case of Brazil, expecially), and i think that we could have a very good avionics equipament, similar or even best than India´s Su-35, besides the always welcome "new batch of technology" that a partnership like this can bring into FAB and EMBRAER right?[/quote]

Russian equipment has always been inferior to its western counterparts, but it was also well suited to its prescribed missions...

This is most likely due to the limited success the Russians had at reverse engineering western technology...

Their success in developing and producing an effective 5th generation fighter is yet to be proved. Personally I doubt they will be fully successful at it, more likely settling on a less effective compromise...

_________________
Hotshot
"FAF Shape Meister"
FAF/FA-2 Design team
TSH Member/Developer
VNFAWING.com Forum Administrator

VNFAWING Forums
VNFAWING Website

FA Futures/FA-2 is Still Being Worked On and Will Be Released...

Some sources (completly unoffical) that i´ve talked recently (today in fact) manifested some opinions that are somewhat like yours. A friend of mine, leutenant in FAB, said to me during our lunch today that, the majority of the air force isn´t shure about buying russian equipament...he even said that most of the pilots prefere french equipament...anyway...i´m still not shure...not that i didn´t agree with you guys, but i still think that FAB can make a huge profit with this deal. And to spice the discussion a little bit, about CAG´s post, i think Thomas Kuhn can explain the situation of US X Russian equipament...

I´ve been reading "The Structure of Scientific Revolutions", and this matter sounds much like the "technological patern" (I don´t know if this is the same expression used by the author in the englis version, but is my best shot) description...in a very simple way:
A society produces what his "scientific patern" tend to assume is best; it´s something like a military (and engeneering) doctrine clash...in the cold war times at least, we can assume that...but im not completly shure about the post USSR days, since most of the projects were abandoned/postponed...
(I hope i was able to make myself clear...)

Looks like the Brazil-Russia agreement concerning the PAK-FA is just a small part of a bigger deal...theres a partnership deal for producing and launch satellites from Alcântara air base...and some (unnoficial) sources commented that we might start to receive tons of russian equipament if the PAK-FA proves to be valuable...helicopters, tanks, infantry weapons to say at least...Looks like some guys here are a "little bit" afraid of Hugo Chavez and his recent purchases (Su-35, Ak-103, Mil-35 Hind and so on)
I just bought a local aviation magazine, and i just discovered that Brazilian Army is going to buy some attack helicopters (A-109 Mangusta or some Russian Model...i´m not shure)...anyway, i´m starting to think that US and UE governments will be not pleased...

Brazil was never much of a US customer anyway...

But it's the Brazilian people that will suffer...

Lost investment in second rate equipment...

Both Syria and Algeria just had to cancel brand new deals with MIG due to the producers substitution of used and wornout MIG-29 airframes for new production MIG-29SMT's...

The Russians (governemnt included) tried to pull this off despite assurances that the equipment would be brand new...

Both deals and others have been cancelled due to these issues...

And this is the producers of the euipment that you want to place the future of your countries security with?

Amazing...

_________________
Hotshot
"FAF Shape Meister"
FAF/FA-2 Design team
TSH Member/Developer
VNFAWING.com Forum Administrator

VNFAWING Forums
VNFAWING Website

FA Futures/FA-2 is Still Being Worked On and Will Be Released...

I didn´t say i want to see Brazil operating Russian equipament...i just give the information...In fact in my opinion, Brazil should stay with French equipament, cause after all, half of the air force already speak´s (or can read an comprehend) French.
And about Brazil not been a US customer, thats not true. Brazil is a US customer since 1941 , when we start to get equipament (and doctrine) from US. France is a major partner to, but doubtless, US is the bigger one. C-130, UH-1, F-5, T-33, NA T-6, C-46, C-47, C-119, P-47, S-55...all US...France became a more active partner in the middle 70´s, but the only great acquisition was the Mirrage III...i supose that only the brazilian radar network is in majority french equipament...
But i understand why you said that...in fact Brazilian Armed Forces are quite small, besides the size of our territory. The spearhead of FAB counts with 250 combat aircraft aproximatly; 50 air planes are COIN/Light Attack A-29 Tucano...our fleet of interceptors count with 12 Mirrage 2000 and 48 F-5M(BR) Tiger (modernized by EMBRAER with Israeli equipament; i will post some information about F-5M in the near future). And our attack fleet is composed by aproximatly 75 A-1M AMX (EMBRAER/Aermacchi/Aeritália project, developed in mid 80´s).
Brazil do not spend much money in military weapons and equipament, and so, it may look we do not buy US equipament. But in proportion US is our biggest partner...
Now if you ask me, the positive thing on this deal is the technology batch to Brazilian industry. The deal grants complete technology sharing, and for EMBRAER this would be outstanding. If Brazil get some of this, maybe in 20th to 30th years we may be able to build modern Radars and Turbofans.
And after all US and France are ofering second line equipament. A good example were the (thanks God) cancelled FX program, for buying a new aircraft to substitute the MIII. US ofered us in 1999-2000 the F-16 block 32 without the gatling cannon (M61 i think). France ofered us M-2000C MLU (with some components of the M-2000-5)...Russia came with Su-27S, and the only (trully) modern aircraft was the (out of favor in FAB) Saab Grippen.
In this perspective, Russian State of the art equipament, even if downgraded when compared to US equipament (F-22 or F-35) aren´t so bad...

It doesnt much matter what Brazil bought previously...

They are not much of a US customer today. Basically they chose to use French aircraft and now want to use Russian...

Both are substandard compared to what the US is producing today...

BTW there is no version of the F-16 without the M61 vulcan cannon. I highly doubt your claimed sources with such incorrect information in your posts.

In addition...



Nothing the Russians have today, or within the next 10 to 20 years, will survive the F-35, much less the F-22! LMAO! I dont care what shape they produce their next generation aircraft in (or draw them to look like), or what they "claim" (like their suppossed plasma stealth, which was ntohing more then Sci Fi!) they are capable of, nothing coming out of Russian will be able to compete. Nor will it ever likely be produced, considering the real cost of development of Stealth aircraft.

Russian aircraft are nothing more then targets waiting to be splashed...

Though I do wish Brazil good luck with the Ruskie equipment. Perhaps if you look closely at the avionics you will see the US component production marks that the Russians copies when reverse engineering 25 year old US Avionics to produce the Russian current versions...

_________________
Hotshot
"FAF Shape Meister"
FAF/FA-2 Design team
TSH Member/Developer
VNFAWING.com Forum Administrator

VNFAWING Forums
VNFAWING Website

FA Futures/FA-2 is Still Being Worked On and Will Be Released...

Its very important to take a closer look on what Brazil accquired previously...First of all cause, as i said brazilian armed forces are quite small...we only buy equipament in medium to large time gaps...but Brazilian Army bought recently (and is still receiving the aircrafts) some Black Hawks. The air force Replaced his obsolete fleet of C-130E with some C-130H i think (i´m not shure if the designation is right, but is the version before the C-130J). Brazil wanted to buy some AH-1 Super Cobra, but US denied the order. Our navy operates the A-4 (bought from Kwait, but the MLU was made by US).
Now about the F-16 Block 32 without M61, the info isn´t wrong. In fact, untill the late 90´s US Congress did not authorized Brazil to buy and operate M61 (I cannot say how the situation is today, but i doubt it changed drastically). If you think i´m wrong, take a closer look in the AMX A-1. The Italy version is equiped with a M61. The Brazilian version suffered a redesign in order to receive two DEFA 52 guns. In fact US did not aprove the sale of M61 to ALL countries of south america until the Chilean accquisition of F-16 Block 50(besides Venezuela, operator of F-16 since 1984 i guess). Take a good look at the other south american air forces...Argentina NO M61, Bolivia NO M61, Colombia (before US and Colombian governments start the recent "affair") NO M61, Paraguay NO M61, Chile (before the recent accquisition of F-16) NO M61, Peru NO M61, Uruguay NO M61, Venezuela (After Hugo Chavez) NO M61, Guiana, Suriname and French Guiana NO M61, Brazil NO M61.
The US Foreign Sales to latin america are (unfortunatly) made this way. US even ofered to ALL countries of South America in FIDAE 2004 i think, a light atack version of the S-3 Vicking. This "A-3 Vicking" was nothing but previously used S-3 cells, striped of all (ALL...) the orignal avionics. Now if US where (hipothetically) in the same situation than Brazil are right now, you would prefere to see your country equiped with Russian state of the art equipament (even downgraded when compared with US equipament), with complete technology tranfers (incuding font codes, radar and turbofan technology), or an aircraft like F-16 Block 32?
In fact, without the tecnology transfer, even Rafaele isn´t so atractive...
And about Russian equipament, during all the 20th century, the western world doubted the Russian (or USSR) capacity to build and operate modern military equipament...in the WWII they proved wrong, just like during the cold war...it´s only a question to see the past...and to avoid critics, i´m not saying that Russian equipament is better or even equal to his US counter parts...but say that Russia what Russia uses today is only reverse engeneering of US parts produced 25 years ago looks a bit radical to me...

PS: What the hell is LMAO???

LMAO = Laugh My Ass Off....

Well I have never heard of a limitation on the M61 vulcan cannon. Its 1950s technology, slightly upgraded...

As a matter of fact, many countries have asked to have it replaced with larger caliber cannon, that pack a heavier hit. Have never even seen or heard of a US limit on its sale.

However, none of the countries that you listed above, that dont have the M61, operate any US aircraft that carried the M61 cannon, so why would they be expected to have it?

Also its the basis of the Phalanx anti-missile system, perhaps this is one of the reasons for limiting its export?

However, I would indeed like to see the specs of the F-16s and the export program that supported it, without an M61 cannon...

_________________
Hotshot
"FAF Shape Meister"
FAF/FA-2 Design team
TSH Member/Developer
VNFAWING.com Forum Administrator

VNFAWING Forums
VNFAWING Website

FA Futures/FA-2 is Still Being Worked On and Will Be Released...

I´ve read about the F-16 Block 32 without M61 in some local magazines (the good ones)...i´ll try to find it, and than i can make a rough translation for you guys, ok? I checked on the net and didn´t find anything good...looks like the data was removed from the Brazilian Defense Ministery web page, afterall the program was cancelled almost two years ago...
About the M61, the Phalanx anti-missile system is probably one of the major reasons...
I´ve been looking in my magazine´s collection and find something that should explain why latin american countrys didn´t buy US equipament in the late 80´s and the 90´s...I found some small articles (from 1996 to 1998) refering to a "request to proposal" made by Chile. FaCH (Chilean Air Force in his original designation) selected the F/A-18, and these articles unveiled the whole legal process to authorize the purchase of this aircraft by FaCH. After all the legal procedure, everything was depending on US Congress Authorization for FaCH complete the deal. US Congress cancelled the deal, and a new program was launched. This new program was in fact the responsable for the acquisition of the Chilean F-16 Block 50.
The same occured with Peru when this country was sellecting his new (now not so new anymore...) front line interceptor...in fact Peru bought MiG-29 after US denied a order of F-16A Block 24 i think...
And, in a certain point of view, the same occured with Venezuela lattely...besides the fact that Hugo Chavez openlly criticises US foreign politics...the Venezuelan F-16 are, by now, in storage, snce the US embargo prevented FAV (Venezuelan Air Force in his original designation)
from acquiring the replaceble parts necessary to operate the aircraft. And Argentinian Air Force sufered a US embrago after Falklands, and the situation did not improved before the purchase of IA (Industria Aeronautica Argentina - Argentinian Aircraft Industries) by Lockheed in the late 90´s. Even the partnership deal concerning Lockheed and IA (since the mid 80´s), for manofacturing some Dassault Alphajet for Argentinian Air Force and for export (With the name of IA 63 Pampa), in the IA facillities (with Lockheed supervision) didn´t helped in the situation. In fact, just with the A-4AR (Some old A-4C/E refurbished and modernized by Lockheed Argentina, with tons of Israeli avionics) the US Congress started to accept the sale of millitary equipament to this country.
But as i said, the FAB A-1 AMX is the best example of the "embargo" of the M61.
And if you take a closer look, all Latin American countries operate "revolver type" cannons (DEFA in Mirage, AMX,Pucará and so on, M20 in F-5)...the only "gatling type" (Before F-16 Block 50 of FaCH, and the Russian aircrafts bought recently) was the 7,62mm minigun, operated in some A-37 Dragonfly...
Another good example of the purchase limitations to South America is the AIM-9 Sidewinder. Until the late 80´s, South American Airforces where only allowed to operate the "B" version (in fact, several Brazilians and Argentinians expecialists says that, if Argentina were equiped with AIM-9P instead of B, the Falklands conflict should have a complettly diferent end).
Brazil haves tons of AIM-9B (most of them are, by now, been removed of service), and, in order to have a more advanced equipament, started the development of his own short range missile (MAA-1 Piranha). In the biggining the develpment suffered from major problems, the latter one was the missil suport (they used some refurbished F-5 suports, developed originally for the AIM-9B). But then the program developed quiet well and two years ago Dennel Aerospace and MAA cutted a deal to produce A-Darter and MAA-1 Piranha for Brazilian and South African Air Forces.

PS: What´s the Major Diference between F-16 block 50/52 and block 60?
It´s just the conformal fuel tanks on the side of the body? Theres some "real" diferences in avionics? Theres any modern block been produced (or some andvaced block that shall be produced in the near future)?

India is a part of this whole PAK-FA venture? I thought they had recent plans for a large scale Gripen NG purchase? Will that simply be yet another interim fighter until the T-50MKI? I thought the SU-35MKI was an interim for the T-50MKI...

_________________
Im outta here!

Unless the SU-35MKI was not meant to be an interim fighter, but the one chosen to serve alongside the PAK-FA??? But why the need for the Gripen NG?

_________________
Im outta here!

http://www.janes.com/news/defence/air/jdw/jdw080430_1_n.shtml

India is part of the PAK-FA program, to eventually replace/supplement the Su-30MKIs as well as the Mirage 2000s I assume. AFAIK India hasn't shown much interest in the new Su-35; Russia offered it to Su-30MK_ customers at the Farnborough air show:

http://en.rian.ru/russia/20080715/114032520.html

The program to replace the MiG-29s (and Jaguars, MiG-27s?) is the MRCA program. The contenders are: "Boeing's F/A-18E/F-IN Super Hornet; the Dassault Rafale; the EADS Eurofighter Typhoon; Lockheed Martin's F16-IN; the Russian Aircraft Corporation's MiG-35; and Saab's JAS 39 Gripen."








Zephyr