Zephyr Net

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Fighting for justice with brains of steel

Let your anger be like the monkey which hides inside the piniata.

I personally believe the US Military has been so good is due to the location of the war. Its flat desert terrain. I think if we were fighting in a Vietnam type terrain and a Vietnam type situation it would have been totally different. In the desert there is no where to really hide from aircraft and drones. Combine that with the fact the war was conventional and the current superiority of US conventional weapons, well it speaks for itself..

I mean no criticism of the US Armed Forces, its just you do not see anyone else winning wars in so short a time with less then 100 combat deaths! Even the Israelis suffered higher ratios then that. Much higher!

I think what has to be realy looked at is not where they fight but who they fight.

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August 2nd 2003
The 110th Anniversary of Yugolsaivan Aviation!
St. Elias the gardian of the Fighter pilot.

Well BT considering that the armed forces of Iraq, even for Iraqi Freedom, were upwards of 2 times larger then in the Vietnam War and had thousands upon thousands of armored vehicles, I challenge you to find another army as effectivly armed as theirs in the world today.

I can count maybe 2 that had the same force levels or higher

China and North Korea.

I can think of no others that have so large an armed force.

I think we could won in a Vietnam type terrain. For one- we have smart bombs and bunker busters now, there's little need to wipe out the enemy in the field if you completely cut off his logistics and communicades.

And bunker busters would make an underground bunker / tunnel useless. Not to mention that no Republican president would put ROE on the troops.

Also napalm is still an effective weapon, as well as the MOAB. A war in jungle terrain would require their use, making for a dicey political war. Yet I think the U.S. can't be beat in jungle terrain anymore.

IIRC the U.S. won every set battle of the Vietnam war, it's just that the commies had a brilliant political strategy to turn Americans against the war so they could accomplish their sick dreams........

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allah no longer exists, for I have killed him. You must worship me instead.

Well with Iraq it has to bee taken into consideration that their army lack modern weopons. The situation for the last war has left them with out the ability to aqure new weopons or to aquare half decant part to fix the existing eqipment to 100%.
Iraqis lact to thing the most in the war:
1) Air cover
2) Moral

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August 2nd 2003
The 110th Anniversary of Yugolsaivan Aviation!
St. Elias the gardian of the Fighter pilot.

Well BT I see you did not find another opponent heavier armed.

Well as far as I can find, the Iraqis had modern SAMs, modern ATGWs(Russian, French), modern GPS Jammers(**Very Modern Russian**), modern radars(french), enough modern MiGs that they could have really screwed with airsupport (MiG-23,25s,29s, and SU-22s,25s for ground attack) and attacked the armored forces. 3800 tanks of which over 800 were T-72s, 500 Type 69(up gunned to 125mm), 500 T-62s(upgunned to 125mm), and the rest Type 59 or T-55s, Plus BMP-2s, BMP-1s, BDMs, BRDMs, SA-7s, SA-9s, Rolands, SA-13s, SA-14s, SA-3s, Silkworm, Frog, SA-2s Scud Bs, Scud C, their "Al Sumed(sp?)" rockets, KS-19s, KS-12s, 57,37,40mm AAA fixed or towed guns, ZSU-57s, ZSU-23x4s, 14,5mm quad and twin machingun AA, BM-21s MRS, D-30 122mm Arty, 152mm Arty, mobile 152mm Arty, untold thousands of hand launched RPGs and LAW type rockets, millions of AK-47s...

Yea they were real pushovers... Dont even know why we worried about it, sheesh my granny could of done it all by herself...

Well on paper like that Iraq's military looks impressive. But I think readiness levels were very low, ~50-60% in some cases, due to spares shortages, and maybe a shortage of conscripts. Also, all the weapons in the world are worthless when the troops take off their uniforms and go home.

Zephyr

An Iraq war would have been much more difficult for any other nation besides the U.S. and perhaps Russia (which I doubt), or perhaps Israel cause they just know how to whoop ass

But what made it so simple IMO is that we bit their heads off. We wiped out their C&C. You can't have an organized defense if all your generals are either dead or POWs..........

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allah no longer exists, for I have killed him. You must worship me instead.

[img]Well%20on%20paper%20like%20that%20Iraq's%20military%20looks%20impressive.%20But%20I%20think%20readiness%20levels%20were%20very%20low,%20~50-60%%20in%20some%20cases,%20due%20to%20spares%20shortages,%20and%20maybe%20a%20shortage%20of%20conscripts.%20Also,%20all%20the%20weapons%20in%20the%20world%20are%20worthless%20when%20the%20troops%20take%20off%20their%20uniforms%20and%20go%20home.[/img]

thats what I mean, the troops were demorilized, and the sanctions have cause much of the equipment to decay, iut could not be fixed. The planes are a example, the radars cannot be repaired eazily if at all without spare parts, making the planes useless. It like the Yugo MiG-29 in 1999 after some 7 years of sanctions left them with no radars, they were "operational" a llie, they were nothing more then "flyable" prob the same situaltion of the Iraqi air force in March.

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August 2nd 2003
The 110th Anniversary of Yugolsaivan Aviation!
St. Elias the gardian of the Fighter pilot.

Thats what I mean, the troops were demorilized, and the sanctions have cause much of the equipment to decay, it could not be fixed. The planes are a example, the radars cannot be repaired eazily if at all without spare parts, making the planes useless. It like the Yugo MiG-29 in 1999 after some 7 years of sanctions left them with no radars, they were "operational" a llie, they were nothing more then "flyable" prob the same situaltion of the Iraqi air force in March.

Sorry this is a redo.

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August 2nd 2003
The 110th Anniversary of Yugolsaivan Aviation!
St. Elias the gardian of the Fighter pilot.

Well, considering the Iraqis had direct Russian aid and brand new equipment illegally supplied to them by the Russians, and they were continually breaking the no fly zones with these MiGs, I doubt they were at reduced readiness. THeir tanks were not the newest, yet still packed 125mm guns. You go climb into a thin skinned Bradley IFV and look down the barrell of one of those and tell me it doesnt concern you?

But you go right ahead and continue making excuses, its the same ones you used to excuse the ass kicking the Yugos received.


BTW, why didnt you just hit he EDIT button and alter the original message instead of quoting yourself and posting another one?

Well I cant deny or confirm the Russian assitence in obtaining illigal weopns.
How many weopons were obtained that way?

The thing is that they fought a 7-8 year Irani war and then a war againts the allies followd by sanctions. It would have been realy hard to re-arm and fix the army under those conditions. The fact that Iraqi planes flew over the no-fly zone means that they are in flying condition. Flying is not same as "operational". A MiG or Su can fly without radar, RWR or any other sensors operating, but is no use in a modern bettle field. It is flying blind.

The reason I used the yugos is because thats what happened there. The MiG-29's were send up with no radar, some were having radio and RWR melfunctions. 6 planes were lost in aircombat and two pilots killed. They were flyable but not operational. Due the inability to aquare spare parts during the sanctions. They flew blind and were eazy picking. I doubt that even if they were fully operational they could have done much there were too few of them, but atleast then they could have had a chance to engage in "real combat".

The reason why I posted twice is because I did not know that i was able to edit on this board.

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August 2nd 2003
The 110th Anniversary of Yugolsaivan Aviation!
St. Elias the gardian of the Fighter pilot.

Iraqi equipment in general after 1991 was in extreme disarray. It was no surprise that it was a rout!

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"Smile, AMRAAMs love you!"
"May the PATRIOTS down the FROGS!"
1Lt. Centurian57_76/369th

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I must agree with CAG...
I have the same opinion. The Desert Helped a lot... Where can you hide your stuff from the Bombers in the Desert?
And about their tanks I think that the US troops came near Bahgdad then waited the enemy tanks to show up...
the few ones that had the guts to move themselves ended up killed in a rain of fire made By A-10 and Apaches...
then all they had to do were enter the city shooting the Fedayens back to the hole where they came from.. (BTW they were shooting EVERYTHING! They even shot the press guys!They probably thought that the cameras were Weapons!)

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"History is written by the winners"
Robert McNamara