Zephyr Net :: View topic - Flight of the Black Widowski

This aircraft is years away from production, and a lot could change, like the YF-22 ---> F-22A, and the changes of the original Flanker. I think some of the most interesting things about the T-50 are the aerodynamics. The LERXs apparently can adjust as sort of psuedo canards.

Well........
I'll tell you what it reminds ME of.
You know when mom/dad buy junior a nice Civic ( or any other decent Nippon export ) and then junior starts hanging plastic on it, wings, splitters, cladding, all sorts of ground effect and aero doo-dads. Then it gets a chip or a big turbo or something. Well that's what the T-50 reminds me of. It looks like the Berkut body with Raptor wings and a failed attempt at Raptor intakes and a lot of lower body "cladding" to produce a weapons bay and to help with stealth.

similar in appearance to the American F-22, though there are so many differences in detail that it is clearly an original design rather than a knock-off copy. A direct comparison with the F-22 is probably not meaningful on an unclassified basis, but Russian marketers will probably sell it as roughly equivalent in combat potential. While the F-35 is also a fifth generation stealth fighter, the low observable characteristics of this attack aircraft are said to be markedly inferior to the all-around stealth of the F-22 air supremacy fighter.

Radar N050(?)BRLS AESA/PESA Radar (Enhancement of IRBIS-E) on SU-35
Frequency 3 mm (0.1 in)
Diameter 0.7 m (2 ft )
Targets 32 tracked, 8 engaged
Range 400 km (250 mi)
EPR 3 m² (30 ft²) at 150 km (100 mi)
RCS 0.01 m² at 100 km (50 mi)
Azimuth +/-70°, +90/-50°
Power 4,000 W

KAPTOR wrote:

The T-50 is not a knock off copy of F-22. The following paragraph from globalsecurity will backup my opinion. Also as i said before the T-50 is designed to compete with the F-35.

Quote:

furthermore, according to the site, T-50 can maintain a cruising speed of 1300km/h and has a ferry range of 5000km. RCS is rated at 0.01m2 at 50mi. Radar performance will also be superior to the Su-27.

Quote:

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... pak-fa.htm

While it is not as stealthy as the F-35 (0.0015m2) its RCS is smaller than the F/A-18F (0.1m2).

It looks like a Su-27 and a YF-23 melded together. The more I look at it though, the less bad it looks.

Author:	Zephyr [ Fri Jan 29, 2010 11:56 am ]
Post subject:	Flight of the Black Widowski
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22fN4fVoFdY Russia's T-50 PAK-FA has finally flown and been shown to the public. The aircraft looks like the child of a Flanker and the YF-23. I read around the internet some questioning of the internal bay capacity and I'd be interested to learn more details of that. The bays are apparently between the engines. I think looks can be deceiving; the aircraft is huge, and if the bays extend up to the fuselage spine, it could probably carry what the Russians said they wanted it to carry: Kh-58 Kilter size missiles. http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE60S0UW20100129

Author:	KAPTOR [ Sat Jan 30, 2010 15:15 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Flight of the Black Widowski
Well........ I'll tell you what it reminds ME of. You know when mom/dad buy junior a nice Civic ( or any other decent Nippon export ) and then junior starts hanging plastic on it, wings, splitters, cladding, all sorts of ground effect and aero doo-dads. Then it gets a chip or a big turbo or something. Well that's what the T-50 reminds me of. It looks like the Berkut body with Raptor wings and a failed attempt at Raptor intakes and a lot of lower body "cladding" to produce a weapons bay and to help with stealth. Considering the huge leap MiG took with the 1.42 this offering from Sukhoi is pretty disappointing. Certainly no challenge to the F-22 more like a 4.5 gen plane, maybee somewhere between the Super Hornet and an F-22 but closer to the SH in the stealth department. Stealth requires commitment, not hodge-podge.

Author:	Ali [ Mon Feb 01, 2010 02:18 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Flight of the Black Widowski
whatever i like this plane say as opposed to the F-35. i don't want to compare it to the F-22 for many reasons which i don't want to list. Whether its not as good as the Raptor or not it features a significantly reduced radar signature and thats important. As we know Russian fighters are excellent dog fighters and reduced RCS means closer range engagement. The F-22 has a great radar system but its detection range will drop significantly for a T-50 as opposed to a Su-27.

Author:	CAG Hotshot [ Mon Feb 01, 2010 06:21 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Flight of the Black Widowski
Well that depends on just how "Stealthy" this aircraft turns out to really be... Low RCS is a vague claim... Lower that what? A barn maybe?... Is it lower frontal RCS like the F-15SE Silent Eagle? Or overall stealth like the F-22? Supercruise is also vague, for 1 knot over supersonic is super cruise... How fast is this aircraft? I tend to agree with Kap, it does look like a reworked Berkut... BTW did you notice all the rivets on the canopy frame? The cylindrical engine housings would be a magnet to radar returns from any other quadrant other than nose on... Stealthy, I dont think so...

Author:	KAPTOR [ Mon Feb 01, 2010 17:03 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Flight of the Black Widowski
Lots of claims, zero facts right now. Stealth is about half art and half science, looks don't mean as much as you think. Rockwell IIRC had a VERY similar design less the hoz stabs many moons ago for the ATF competition. Will try to find a pic online, rather than scannin from my printed source ( wherever the heck it is these days! ).

Zephyr Net http://jkpeterson.net/forum/

Flight of the Black Widowski http://jkpeterson.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=1947	Page 1 of 2

Author:	KAPTOR [ Mon Feb 01, 2010 17:10 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Flight of the Black Widowski
I love the internet lol Viola "blueprints": http://www.aircraftdesign.com/atf_rockwell_d703-11_raymer.jpg An "engine out" situation in this T-50 would be a freaking disaster, it's bad enough in an F-14 but the yaw would be even worse for this design.

Author:	CAG Hotshot [ Mon Feb 01, 2010 17:58 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Flight of the Black Widowski
Good find Kap!

Author:	KAPTOR [ Mon Feb 01, 2010 18:15 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Flight of the Black Widowski
I made a model of that Rockwell ATF entry many years ago from scratch. A couple months later I modded it to enclose the area between the engine nacelles to make a weapons bay. Ended up looking very much like the T-50 but without the angled forward fuselage. I also made a canarded F-14 with forward swept wings and STO/VL, but that's another story lol.

Author:	Zephyr [ Mon Feb 01, 2010 21:12 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Flight of the Black Widowski
This aircraft is years away from production, and a lot could change, like the YF-22 ---> F-22A, and the changes of the original Flanker. I think some of the most interesting things about the T-50 are the aerodynamics. The LERXs apparently can adjust as sort of psuedo canards.

Author:	KAPTOR [ Mon Feb 01, 2010 23:50 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Flight of the Black Widowski
Zephyr wrote: This aircraft is years away from production, and a lot could change, like the YF-22 ---> F-22A, and the changes of the original Flanker. I think some of the most interesting things about the T-50 are the aerodynamics. The LERXs apparently can adjust as sort of psuedo canards. I'm guessing that will have more to do with engine aerodynamics than maneuvering.

Author:	Ali [ Tue Feb 02, 2010 13:04 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Flight of the Black Widowski
KAPTOR wrote: Well........ I'll tell you what it reminds ME of. You know when mom/dad buy junior a nice Civic ( or any other decent Nippon export ) and then junior starts hanging plastic on it, wings, splitters, cladding, all sorts of ground effect and aero doo-dads. Then it gets a chip or a big turbo or something. Well that's what the T-50 reminds me of. It looks like the Berkut body with Raptor wings and a failed attempt at Raptor intakes and a lot of lower body "cladding" to produce a weapons bay and to help with stealth. The T-50 is not a knock off copy of F-22. The following paragraph from globalsecurity will backup my opinion. Also as i said before the T-50 is designed to compete with the F-35. Quote: similar in appearance to the American F-22, though there are so many differences in detail that it is clearly an original design rather than a knock-off copy. A direct comparison with the F-22 is probably not meaningful on an unclassified basis, but Russian marketers will probably sell it as roughly equivalent in combat potential. While the F-35 is also a fifth generation stealth fighter, the low observable characteristics of this attack aircraft are said to be markedly inferior to the all-around stealth of the F-22 air supremacy fighter. furthermore, according to the site, T-50 can maintain a cruising speed of 1300km/h and has a ferry range of 5000km. RCS is rated at 0.01m2 at 50mi. Radar performance will also be superior to the Su-27. Quote: Radar N050(?)BRLS AESA/PESA Radar (Enhancement of IRBIS-E) on SU-35 Frequency 3 mm (0.1 in) Diameter 0.7 m (2 ft ) Targets 32 tracked, 8 engaged Range 400 km (250 mi) EPR 3 m² (30 ft²) at 150 km (100 mi) RCS 0.01 m² at 100 km (50 mi) Azimuth +/-70°, +90/-50° Power 4,000 W http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... pak-fa.htm While it is not as stealthy as the F-35 (0.0015m2) its RCS is smaller than the F/A-18F (0.1m2).

Author:	KAPTOR [ Tue Feb 02, 2010 14:34 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Flight of the Black Widowski
Ali wrote: KAPTOR wrote: Well........ I'll tell you what it reminds ME of. You know when mom/dad buy junior a nice Civic ( or any other decent Nippon export ) and then junior starts hanging plastic on it, wings, splitters, cladding, all sorts of ground effect and aero doo-dads. Then it gets a chip or a big turbo or something. Well that's what the T-50 reminds me of. It looks like the Berkut body with Raptor wings and a failed attempt at Raptor intakes and a lot of lower body "cladding" to produce a weapons bay and to help with stealth. The T-50 is not a knock off copy of F-22. The following paragraph from globalsecurity will backup my opinion. Also as i said before the T-50 is designed to compete with the F-35. Quote: similar in appearance to the American F-22, though there are so many differences in detail that it is clearly an original design rather than a knock-off copy. A direct comparison with the F-22 is probably not meaningful on an unclassified basis, but Russian marketers will probably sell it as roughly equivalent in combat potential. While the F-35 is also a fifth generation stealth fighter, the low observable characteristics of this attack aircraft are said to be markedly inferior to the all-around stealth of the F-22 air supremacy fighter. furthermore, according to the site, T-50 can maintain a cruising speed of 1300km/h and has a ferry range of 5000km. RCS is rated at 0.01m2 at 50mi. Radar performance will also be superior to the Su-27. Quote: Radar N050(?)BRLS AESA/PESA Radar (Enhancement of IRBIS-E) on SU-35 Frequency 3 mm (0.1 in) Diameter 0.7 m (2 ft ) Targets 32 tracked, 8 engaged Range 400 km (250 mi) EPR 3 m² (30 ft²) at 150 km (100 mi) RCS 0.01 m² at 100 km (50 mi) Azimuth +/-70°, +90/-50° Power 4,000 W http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... pak-fa.htm While it is not as stealthy as the F-35 (0.0015m2) its RCS is smaller than the F/A-18F (0.1m2). Where to start lol A: There can be no finer source of info than FAS/GS B: I never said it was a knock-off of the F-22 but the Soviets have always skipped original research by copying Western features, the T-50 is no exception. It is quite obviously a Flanker derivative whereas the F-22 bears virtually zero resemblance to any previous Western aircraft not even Lockheeds own early ATF proposals. The F-22 of today evolved from lessons learned, the T-50 is a "Raptorized" Flanker with no new ides. Ironic since the Flanker was the first Soviet plane in decades to "go it's own way" to a certain extant. C: Since I have family involved in the Super Hornet program, family in the missile division of Boeing in St. Charles and friends/family in the Tomahawk development offices I can tell you the RCS of said aircraft has never been released and has always been considerably lower than stated in the press.

Author:	Kai [ Tue Feb 02, 2010 18:35 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Flight of the Black Widowski
It looks like a Su-27 and a YF-23 melded together. The more I look at it though, the less bad it looks.

Author:	CAG Hotshot [ Thu Feb 11, 2010 06:37 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Flight of the Black Widowski
Kai wrote: It looks like a Su-27 and a YF-23 melded together. The more I look at it though, the less bad it looks. "Less bad" as in less badass or "Less bad" as in looking better?

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Author:	KAPTOR [ Thu Feb 18, 2010 03:59 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Flight of the Black Widowski
Ok, I'm looking at several much higher quality pics of the T-50 and I have to say it's hard to not laugh out loud! If you are familiar with all the work that went into turning the Hornet into the Super Hornet then you can understand what we are looking at here except in this case it appears to have been done by third graders. The planform alignment alone is incomplete and curious to say the least with the intakes appearing to not be aligned with much of anything else. The clipped wingtips are not aligned with anything either. No sawtooth edges on any of the doors/panels and those Flanker FOD louvers are still under the intakes. And those intakes appear to have zero twist in them to block incoming and exiting RF. Even the old F/A-18 had a twisted intake tunnel to help with that. There are two bays in between the engines one behind the other and two doors on each bay and there are two hardpoints under each of the wings. The vertical tails are all moving, one piece and will be changed once they encounter the inevitable flutter in high AoA and begin to depart the airframe. What we are seeing is much more akin to the Super Hornet improvements rather than a clean sheet Raptor. The F-22 is in no danger from this aircraft. I will give Sukhoi the benefit of the doubt and say this is more of a tech demo program aircraft with the production model to be VERY different in details. They have a LOT of work ahead of them.