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PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2012 14:03 pm 
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The Rafale has finally won an export contract, it has won the Indian MMRCA contest over the Eurofighter Typhoon. I will try to have more later.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 22:58 pm 
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The Indians never were very smart... Support costs have to be 10 times higher for a jet in use by only a single country like the Rafale...

I predict that there will be political fallout due to this choice and probably uncovered corruption.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 15:12 pm 
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I think the Rafale is a very good acquisition for India as a medium multi-role fighter (Not counting future upgrades of 51 Mirage-2000 H/TH and about 60 MIG-29B/UB in standard UPG) to
complete the almost 250 Su-30 MKI and the future T-50...


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 02:09 am 
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The Indian competition was all about offsets, the French have to sell thier techno souls in exchange for the sale of a few fighters. The U.K. would have had to do the same and are suing the Indian gov for a chance to beat the winning Dassault bid.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 06:00 am 
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- The Real Reasons for Rafale’s Indian Victory -

While many observers cite technology transfer, prices and performance as being major factors in India’s selection of the Rafale as its next-generation fighter, reality is very different even if these factors obviously did play a significant role.

In the same way that it is true that Rafale lost several competitions through no fault of its own, it must be recognized that its victory in India was also won, to a great extent, through no fault of its own. The real reason for its victory is political, and the long memory of Indian politicians was a major contributing factor.

This is not to say, however, that Rafale’s own impressive qualities had nothing to do with its selection. The Indian Air Force, which was extensively briefed by the French air force in the autumn, was particularly impressed by its operational performance during the Libyan bombing campaign and in Afghanistan. Rafale also has a naval variant which could be of future interest to India, given its plans to buy and build aircraft carriers, while the recent decision to upgrade India’s Mirage 2000H fighters will simplify the air force’s logistics chain, as these will share with Rafale many weapons and other equipment.

The Indian Air Force also is a satisfied user of long standing of French fighters, going back to the Dassault Ouragan in the 1950s. It was also particularly appreciative of the performance of its Mirages during the 1999 Kargil campaign against Pakistan, and of the support it then obtained from France. During that campaign, India obtained French clearance – and possibly more - to urgently adapt Israeli and Russian-supplied laser-guided bombs to the Mirages, which were thus able to successfully engage high-altitude targets that Indian MiG-23s and MiG-27s had been unable to reach.

Rafale was preferred because of lower costs, and the Indian air force's familiarity with French warplanes such as the Mirage, Bloomberg reported Feb. 1 quoting an Indian source who asked not be named. "Unit-wise, the French plane is much cheaper than the Eurofighter. Moreover, the Indian air force, which is well equipped with French fighters, is favouring the French," the source said.

To Indian officials, France’s steadfastness as a military ally contrasted strongly with that of the United States, which stopped F-16 deliveries to Pakistan (but kept the money) when it found it expedient to do so, and slowed or vetoed delivery of components for Light Combat Aircraft that India was developing. And, of course, the 1998 arms embargo, decreed by the US after India’s nuclear test in May of that year, left a very bad taste in Indian mouths. France, on the contrary, was the only Western nation not to impose sanctions on that occasion.

That, Indian sources say, was New Delhi’s real reason for eliminating Boeing and Lockheed Martin from the fighter competition; India has resolved, these sources say, to buy only second-line equipment from the U.S., such as transport (C-17, C-130J) or maritime patrol aircraft (P-8I). Vital weapons such as missiles and fighters, when they cannot be locally produced, will remain the preserve of France and Russia.

Political considerations were also a significant factor playing against Rafale’s final competitor, the Eurofighter Typhoon. As this aircraft is produced by a consortium of four nations, each with different foreign policies and different attitudes and tolerances to arms exports, Indian officials were a bit nervous about their ultimate reliability as a single supplier.

Germany is a long-standing Indian aviation partner, and a respected role model for Indian politicians, many of whom were educated there. German companies – essentially the former Messerschmitt-Boelkow-Blohm, now part of EADS - helped Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. develop both the LCA and the Advanced Light Helicopter, now called Dhruv. These links were the reason the Eurofighter bid was led by Germany’s Cassidian, and not BAE Systems, the former colonial power. But Germany had dithered over technology transfer for LCA, soft-pedaled on ALH tech transfer when German pacifists raised their eyebrows, and coughed when India almost went to war with Pakistan over Kargil and Kashmir, so in the final analysis it could not be considered a reliable supplier of major weapons.

Italy has never sold a major weapon to India, and so could bring neither influence nor reputation to support Eurofighter, while the third partner, Spain, is totally absent from the Indian military landscape.

This left BAE Systems as the best-known Eurofighter partner in India, and so by default as its ultimate public face. BAE in 2003 sold £1.5 billion’s worth of Hawk jet trainers to India, with a follow-on, £500 million order in 2010. However, its previous major sale to India was the Jaguar light attack aircraft in the 1970s. In fact, this aircraft was jointly developed by Britain and France on a 50/50 basis, and while it was license-produced by HAL it was never really successful as a fighter. Furthermore, France could claim as much benefit from its Indian career as BAE.

Taken together, the Eurofighter partner nations posed an even thornier problem: in case of war, German law prohibits deliveries of weapons and spares, Italian law and public opinions would demand an embargo, while Spanish legislation is murky. What would happen, Indian politicians must have wondered, if after buying the Eurofighter they went to war? Would spares and weapons be forthcoming, or would they be embargoed? The political risk was obviously too big to take.

Weapons also played a significant role in persuading India to opt for Rafale: not only is its weapons range mostly French-made, and thus not subject to a third-party embargo, but so are all of its sensors. Eurofighter, whose air-to-air missiles include the US-made AIM-120 Amraam and the German-led IRIS-T, and whose primary air-to-ground weapon is the US-made Paveway, was obviously at a competitive disadvantage in this respect.

Furthermore, the Rafale is nuclear-capable and will replace the Mirage 2000N in French service as the carrier of the newly-upgraded ASMP/A nuclear stand-off missile; it is also capable of firing the AM-39 Exocet missile, giving it an anti-ship capability that its competitors do not have. India is also interested in fitting its BrahMos supersonic missile to a wide range of its combat aircraft, and Rafale could apparently carry it.

Given that India had sworn to buy the cheapest compliant competitor, it would have been unable to justify picking the Rafale had this not been offered at the lower price. While official figures have not been released, and indeed may never be, initial reports from New Delhi claim that Rafale was offered at a unit price of $4-$5 million less than Eurofighter, which is a surprisingly large advantage given the French aircraft’s reputation of being high-priced.

The French offer also featured substantially lower costs of ownership, according to the same reports, thanks to lower fuel consumption and simpler maintenance requirements.

If true, these figures imply the French offer undercut Eurofighter by over $600 million, which is a large enough difference for one French insider to wonder whether Dassault Aviation will ever make any money on the contract.

But, even if it doesn’t, the Indian contract gives Rafale instant legitimacy, not only because of the thoroughness and transparency of the bidding process, but also because India is the only country to have fought four and a half major wars since 1948, and so knows something about air combat.

For Dassault, the Rafale program will now remain active, with a stabilized production line, for decades to come, and the company will have that much more time to find additional customers. Keeping its production line and supply chain humming at an economically-viable rate are sufficiently valuable achievements to push immediate profits into the sidelines. Supporting 126 – and possibly 206, if India buys an optional second batch – combat aircraft, and providing spares, fixes and upgrades over the next 40 years, will generate gigantic profits, and this more than justified lowering Dassault’s notoriously high profit margins.

In fact, as one industry official noted, "this is France's answer to 'Al Yamamah', but with twice as many aircraft," drawing a parallel with the UK's sale of Tornado fighters and related services to Saudi Arabia, which was instrumental in keeping BAE Systems prosperous throughout the 1980s and 1990s.

And, as French Defense Minister Gérard Longuet told reporters during an impromptu press conference in Parliament, France may soon find “that good news travels in formation,” implying that further, long-deferred contracts might soon be announced.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 01:33 am 
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If all that held any water they would have just bought more Russian planes.
I've been watching this contract for years in AvWeek, it's all about the money and who wanted to do the most advanced tech transfer so India could one day become a major aerospace player in it's own right, and they will I assure you.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 10:37 am 
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Russia’s Tactical Missile Corporation is negotiating with Dassault Aviation for the possible use of its missiles on the Rafale combat jets that have been selected by the Indian Air Force (IAF). The corporation, whose Russian acronym is TRV, told journalists attending last week’s Maks airshow in Moscow that the Indian air force has large stocks of Russian air-launched weapons, which drives its interest in adapting them to the French warplane. Although the Rafale was named as the winner of India’s MMRCA competition in January 2012, a firm contract has still not been signed.

Dassault did not respond to AIN’s request for comment.

In the RFP for the MMRCA, India stipulated that the first 18 aircraft be delivered with a full complement of integrated weapons. The Rafales would presumably therefore be delivered with MBDA missiles such as the Mica AAM, Scalp ASM and Exocet AshM. But the RFP also required vendors to “integrate additional weapons of the IAF’s choice, as required.”

It seems likely that the IAF and TRV are looking at future upgrades to the Rafale. But the matter could be one more complication that is preventing a conclusion of the Indian Rafale deal. The other complications have included the allocation of responsibility and liability between Dassault and Team Rafale partners such asMBDA, Thales and Sagem and Indian industrial partner companies, including the role to be played by government-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd; and the precise terms of the production licenses to be granted to India. Dassault CEO Eric Trappier described the negotiations as “an uphill task” last June, but nevertheless predicted a successful conclusion by the end of this year.

There are several previous instances of Russian weapons being adapted to French warplanes. For example, Mirage F1EQ fighters of the Iraqi air force carried Kh-29L and other air-ground smart munitions, and South African Air Force Mirage F1s carried R-73E short range air-to-air missiles.


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PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2014 17:10 pm 
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So far this year...

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March 2/14: Workshare deal. Dassault and HAL have reportedly established an initial workshare agreement for Indian Rafales. Dassault will provide the first 18 planes from its own factories in fly-away condition. After that, HAL will be responsible for directing 70% of the work in India, while Dassault remains responsible for 30%.

Negotiations have included industrial coordination, as well as straight workshare. For instance, RBE2-AA AESA radar production will be outsourced to state-owned Bharat-Electronics Ltd (BEL) in Bangalore, while the corresponding radome will be manufactured by HAL. One step toward the agreement involved HAL setting up a new facility close to the one that BEL has in Bangalore, so that issues with radome or radar production won’t create compatibility problems that leave India’s Rafales unable to meet acceptance tests.

Per February revelations, the deal will have to be finalized by whichever government wins India’s coming election. Sources: Indian Express, “India seals Rafale jet deal with French firm” | NDTV, “A big step in India’s Rafale jet deal with France”.

Feb 6/14: Budgets. Defense minister AK Antony tells reporters that India’s Ministry of Defence has exhausted its capital budget, and won’t be able to sign any MMRCA contracts until the next fiscal year. In other words, until several months after the coming election. That effectively prevents any prospect of lock-in by signing an initial contract for 18 Rafales direct from France (q.v. Jan 9/14). Sources: The Times of India, “‘There is no money left’: Govt delays Rafale fighter jet deal” | Bloomberg, “India’s $11 Billion Rafale Jet Deal Delayed Amid Budget Crunch” | Reuters, “India delays Rafale deal after exhausting capital budget”.

Jan 21/14: Budget crunch. India’s Air Force is directly criticizing the Russo-Indian FGFA joint stealth fighter program, according to the minutes of a Dec 24/13 meeting chaired by secretary of defence production Gokul Chandra Pati:

“Business Standard has reviewed the minutes of that meeting. The IAF’s three top objections to the FGFA were: (a) The Russians are reluctant to share critical design information with India; (b) The fighter’s current AL-41F1 engines are inadequate, being mere upgrades of the Sukhoi-30MKI’s AL-31 engines; and (c) It is too expensive. With India paying $6 billion to co-develop the FGFA, “a large percentage of IAF’s capital budget will be locked up.”

On January 15, the IAF renewed the attack in New Delhi, at a MoD meeting to review progress on the FGFA. The IAF’s deputy chief of air staff (DCAS), its top procurement official, declared the FGFA’s engine was unreliable, its radar inadequate, its stealth features badly engineered, India’s work share too low, and that the fighter’s price would be exorbitant by the time it enters service.

Top MoD sources suspect the IAF is undermining the FGFA to free up finances for buying 126 Rafale medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) for an estimated $18 billion, an acquisition that has run into financial headwinds because of budgetary constraints….”

Perhaps if India hadn’t structured its MMRCA competition to completely ignore the costs of the competing aircraft, this wouldn’t be happening. But they did, and it is. Sources: India’s Business Standard, “Russia can’t deliver on Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft: IAF”.

Jan 13/14: Negotiations. India Today reports that a team of French officials from Dassault, Thales and Snecma is in Bangalore talking to HAL at the IAF’s request, in an attempt to resolve the workshare and responsibilities issues that are holding up the deal. As one source put it:

“The difficult part of the negotiations over the transfer of technology and the mandatory [industrial package] spin offs have already been finalised but there is uncertainty about who will provide what”.

Given India’s proposed deal that would give HAL control over the project, but financially penalize Dassault for any failures (q.v. April 5/13), that isn’t exactly surprising. Sources: India Today, “Dassault seeks to end Rafale log jam with IAF”.

Jan 9/14: Interim buy? AIN reports that India may opt for an interim buy of the 18 Rafales that are supposed to be manufactured in France anyway. Negotiations would still need to take place over the remaining 108 aircraft that would be built in India, and there would be long delays before India’s Rafale fleet would grow, but a deal would do 3 things. First, it would allow IAF pilots to begin training. Second, it would reassure foreign firms after a string of confidence-shaking disbarments and cancellations without evidence to back them up. Third, it would lock-in the Rafale as India’s chosen aircraft. With budgets under pressure and so many projects competing for dollars, an MMRCA program that has ballooned to 180% of its original cost projections may need that lock-in to avoid a years-long re-compete. The flip side is that it would weaken India’s negotiating position with Dassault over that follow-on contract.

India will have to move quickly, because a government code of conduct prevents any contracts being awarded within 45 days of an election, which is expected in March. Sources: AIN, “India May Close Interim MMRCA Deal Soon – Plus MRTT”.

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