Zephyr Net :: View topic - EF-2000 vs Rafale

Meanwhile, in late August, the Rafale's older stable mate, the Mirage 2000, remains in the running for an initial 24-aircraft order in Brazil, with another 36 aircraft likely to be sold in a follow-on deal. Since the early 1990s, the Mirage has been infused with much of the technology originally developed for Rafale - and even some more advanced features - and the Mirage and Sweden's Gripen (see "Lion of the Sky,"JED , April 2002) have been the most successful challengers to a US monopoly in the fighter business.

In the late 1980s, Dassault developed a modernized version of the Mirage 2000 (foreground, above) with some features of the Rafale (top), including the HLD and the MICA missile and an improved mechanically scanned radar. The Republic of China (Taiwan) ordered 60 aircraft in mid-1992, followed by orders from Qatar, the French Air Force, and Greece. The latest version of is the Mirage 2000-9, ordered by the United Arab Emirates. Meanwhile, the Rafale has failed to win a single export order to date.

The Thales RDY radar is a conventional but refined system that offers true multi-target tracking and permitted a Mirage armed with MICA to engage four targets simultaneously. Thales claims that the RDY has longer range than the F-16 radar and is, in some respects, easier to use.

The Mirage 2000-9 has the RDY-2 variant, which has a more sensitive receiver and greater range. While the original RDY was primarily an air-to-air radar, the RDY-2 introduces high-resolution air-to-ground modes: Doppler beam-sharpening (DBS) and synthetic-aperture radar (SAR). Combined with the Shehab infrared/laser navigation and targeting system, a UAE version of Damocles, and the Nahar navigation pod, this transforms the Mirage 2000-9 into a true multirole aircraft.

The 2000-9 has the same Modular Data Processing Unit (MDPU) mission computer as the Rafale. The Mirage 2000-9 EW system is the Integrated Multi-mission EW System (IMEWS), developed by Thales and Elettronica. The latest in a series of Thales/MBD suites that started with the Integrated Countermeasures Suite (ICMS) for the first Greek Mirage 2000s, the IMEWS incorporates radio-frequency and IR warning receivers and high-band and low-band jammers. The system on the Mirage 2000-9 Based on the largely digital, more automated ICMS Mk 3, the IMEWS adds a more powerful low-band jammer. The IMEWS is characterized by French engineers as a targeting-capable system, with more precise and faster range measurement capabilities than Spectra, allowing the Mirage 2000-9 to perform a defense-suppression mission.

The Mirage 2000-9 will be the first export fighter to carry the infra-red version of MICA. Another very important role for the Mirage 2000 in the UAE is that of a launch platform for the MBDA Black Shahine precision-guided standoff missile. A specialized development of the Apache, Storm Shadow, and Scalp EG family, Black Shahine was ordered by the UAE in late 1998. The US government has so far declined to integrate the weapon on the F-16, because it regards it as a cruise missile.

Greece ordered the Mirage 2000-5 Mk2, a very similar aircraft to the 2000-9, in August 2000. Greece will eventually have 25 aircraft: 15 new-build airframes and ten upgraded from in-service Mirage 2000s.

On offer for the Mirage 2000-and already selected as an upgrade for France's Mirage 2000-5Fs-is the Thales AIDA visual-identification pod. AIDA comprises the visual-identification hardware from the Rafale FSO, packaged in the Damocles pod structure.

Author:	Speedy [ Wed Sep 03, 2003 04:17 am ]
Post subject:	EF-2000 vs Rafale
Haven't posted for quite a while, decided to start a discussion for once (Wow, that certainly is a rare event for me, lol) What is the superior: EF-2000 Typhoon or Dassult Rafale, imagining that the pilots' skill are the same, no AWAC support or something like that? Feel free to argue your point... What I think (In theory) I think the Typhoon would win in an A2A fight (Dogfight) , because that's what it was designed to do whereas the Rafale was designed to be a multi-role fighter, consequently the Typhoon should be better at A2A (In theory, obviously this may not be the case) Please, no responses like, "The French are wusses so they can't build a decent aircraft..." (For example) I'm just curious about your opinions

Author:	CrazyIvan [ Wed Sep 03, 2003 07:55 am ]
Post subject:	Re: EF-2000 vs Rafale
The Rafale is French, I think that says it all. I've been reading on GlobalSecurity.org on both aircraft and have come to the conclusion that they are evenly matched in many areas. It's kind of hard to go off their numbers due to the fact that on one set of statistics the range is calculated with the weapons and goals of an aircraft mission, while the other has a generic number. The Eurofighter was designed to be the next generation fighter for Europe, that is highly agile and incorporates stealth technology. Though, at the same time the Eurofighter is designed to be cost saving, hence why it was a multi-nation effort. The Rafale reminds me more of just a 21st Century Mirage update that got a new name. In some pictures it looks like they flat out took a Mirage 2000, gave it two engines, canards, upgraded the weapons systems, and slapped on a new name. I don't understand why France didn't dive into the Eurofighter head first. Then again, they seem to want to be isolationist when it comes to a lot of things. France reminds me of that person who is the first to want more of those massive high voltage power lines but is also the first to say "not in my neighborhood." Then again, maybe it's just me.... - Chris

Author:	CAG Hotshot [ Wed Sep 03, 2003 10:52 am ]
Post subject:	Re: EF-2000 vs Rafale
Actually the French were the original partners in the Eurofighter project... However they wanted a navalized version and needed it to be more multirole, therefore they withdrew from the Eurofighter project in the 1980s and began developing a modified version based on Eurofighter research. The result was the Rafale, which is why it resembles the Typhoon. The Rafale's multiple versions represents the way the French approach multiple needs with one airframe... Their long history in this regard is well represented in their Mirage versions. However dont confuse the Mirage with the Rafale. They may bear a simple resemblence, however there are nearly no systems in one that are in the other... The Rafale is inferior to the Typhoon in many regards, as the Rafale is a simlified version of the EUrofighter based on its early research. The French solution of air duct design reflected the needs for the aircraft to function off carriers, where a single large intake could be drown by wave intake over the deck during catapult, resulting in the aircraft stalling into the drink(as the USN found out with the A-7 and both countries naval services with the F-8). Multiple intakes on seperate sides of the aircraft, reduce this risk. Add to this that the original Eurofighter intake had a much higher RCS then the Rafales two smaller intakes, and you can see where the French benefitted from tehir design changes... The avionics on the Rafale are of older design then the Typhoon, simply because the French were successful in getting the Rafale out to combat squadrons much sooner then the Typhoon, thus the Eurofighter benefitted from the availability of newer technology being incorporated into its design. However it remains to be seen which aircraft is tryly superior, as both are quite capable in the air to air engagement, with the Typhoon holding the edge in BVR with its newer radar and longer reaching Meteor missiles vs the French MICA solution...

Author:	da big man! [ Wed Sep 03, 2003 12:44 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: EF-2000 vs Rafale
Well, I think that the french are wusses and can't build a decent aircraft......

Author:	KAPTOR [ Wed Sep 03, 2003 13:39 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: EF-2000 vs Rafale
The Eurofighter will be shown to be stealthier than Rafale, and the Superhornet is stealthier than both of them. Quote: They may bear a simple resemblence, however there are nearly no systems in one that are in the other... actually CAG to thier detriment Dassault has been putting quite a bit of the avionics into the Mirage series, I think it hurts the export chances on Rafale as customers see they can get SOME of Rafales tricks in a much cheaper package. Quote: Meanwhile, in late August, the Rafale's older stable mate, the Mirage 2000, remains in the running for an initial 24-aircraft order in Brazil, with another 36 aircraft likely to be sold in a follow-on deal. Since the early 1990s, the Mirage has been infused with much of the technology originally developed for Rafale - and even some more advanced features - and the Mirage and Sweden's Gripen (see "Lion of the Sky,"JED , April 2002) have been the most successful challengers to a US monopoly in the fighter business. In the late 1980s, Dassault developed a modernized version of the Mirage 2000 (foreground, above) with some features of the Rafale (top), including the HLD and the MICA missile and an improved mechanically scanned radar. The Republic of China (Taiwan) ordered 60 aircraft in mid-1992, followed by orders from Qatar, the French Air Force, and Greece. The latest version of is the Mirage 2000-9, ordered by the United Arab Emirates. Meanwhile, the Rafale has failed to win a single export order to date. The Thales RDY radar is a conventional but refined system that offers true multi-target tracking and permitted a Mirage armed with MICA to engage four targets simultaneously. Thales claims that the RDY has longer range than the F-16 radar and is, in some respects, easier to use. The Mirage 2000-9 has the RDY-2 variant, which has a more sensitive receiver and greater range. While the original RDY was primarily an air-to-air radar, the RDY-2 introduces high-resolution air-to-ground modes: Doppler beam-sharpening (DBS) and synthetic-aperture radar (SAR). Combined with the Shehab infrared/laser navigation and targeting system, a UAE version of Damocles, and the Nahar navigation pod, this transforms the Mirage 2000-9 into a true multirole aircraft. The 2000-9 has the same Modular Data Processing Unit (MDPU) mission computer as the Rafale. The Mirage 2000-9 EW system is the Integrated Multi-mission EW System (IMEWS), developed by Thales and Elettronica. The latest in a series of Thales/MBD suites that started with the Integrated Countermeasures Suite (ICMS) for the first Greek Mirage 2000s, the IMEWS incorporates radio-frequency and IR warning receivers and high-band and low-band jammers. The system on the Mirage 2000-9 Based on the largely digital, more automated ICMS Mk 3, the IMEWS adds a more powerful low-band jammer. The IMEWS is characterized by French engineers as a targeting-capable system, with more precise and faster range measurement capabilities than Spectra, allowing the Mirage 2000-9 to perform a defense-suppression mission. The Mirage 2000-9 will be the first export fighter to carry the infra-red version of MICA. Another very important role for the Mirage 2000 in the UAE is that of a launch platform for the MBDA Black Shahine precision-guided standoff missile. A specialized development of the Apache, Storm Shadow, and Scalp EG family, Black Shahine was ordered by the UAE in late 1998. The US government has so far declined to integrate the weapon on the F-16, because it regards it as a cruise missile. Greece ordered the Mirage 2000-5 Mk2, a very similar aircraft to the 2000-9, in August 2000. Greece will eventually have 25 aircraft: 15 new-build airframes and ten upgraded from in-service Mirage 2000s. On offer for the Mirage 2000-and already selected as an upgrade for France's Mirage 2000-5Fs-is the Thales AIDA visual-identification pod. AIDA comprises the visual-identification hardware from the Rafale FSO, packaged in the Damocles pod structure.

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Author:	CAG Hotshot [ Wed Sep 03, 2003 14:24 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: EF-2000 vs Rafale
Yes this is perfectly true Kap. Goood article! However what I meant was that the Rafale was developed with different systems then were in the original Mirage 2000 series(2000Cs were then in production, right?) and therefore was not an uprated Mirage. It makes quite alot of sense that gains from the Rafale project have been incorporated into the older sister M2000s to bring her up to date with new variants...

Author:	KAPTOR [ Wed Sep 03, 2003 17:41 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: EF-2000 vs Rafale
yeah I dont consider there to be much lineage between Mirage and Rafale, almost a "clean sheet" for Dassault

Author:	CAG Hotshot [ Wed Sep 10, 2003 19:25 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: EF-2000 vs Rafale
But how effective do you REALLY think this bird will be? Remember it will mainly be limited to employment of French weapons, and other then the Durandal, I have not seen anything major come out of France that has gotten a good combat record, even the Israelis didnt like the French missiles, that was the motivation for them to start to create their own...

Author:	Centurian57_369th [ Wed Sep 10, 2003 23:46 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: EF-2000 vs Rafale
The Eurofighter will win at anything hands down. For air to air it can employ the AIM-9X or the AIM-132 for close-in dogfighting and we've already covered that the AIM-9X is undefeatable and the AIM-132 ain't far behind. The Rafale will employ the Magic II, which the AIM-9M is superior to so that should put that in perspective. For medium range they will employ the AIM-120C AMRAAM, the AIM-7 Sparrow, or the Skyflash. The latter two are less likely but they are still potent killers and come on the AIM-120C, that's another undefeatable missile. For the Rafale it'll be either the Super 530 or the Mica (AR/IR). Now with this the IR may be a potent foe but the Mica is basically sub-AIM-120A technology so. The Super 530 is more like the Sparrow. For long range the Eurofighter will employ the BVRAAM which will be a beefed up modified AIM-120 in essence. The Rafale has no counterpart for this. In gun dogfights, the BK-27 is shown to be one of the most superior in the world, iwth the GSh-30-1 in the lead IIRC. Now for air to ground, the Eurofighter has a ton of stores. It can drop JDAMs, laser-guided bombs, iron bombs, clusters, etc. The Rafale can pretty much do the same but their smart bomb technology is not equivelent to the JDAM or the Paveway III. For anti-tank roles the Eurofighter can employ the Brimstone which is amazing in every respect. I am not sure if the Rafale will have a counterpart. The Eurofighter can also employ the Maverick. For stand-off, the Eurofighter can employ the Storm Shadow or the Apache, both amazing missiles. I believe the Rafale has a counterpart but am not sure as to the name though I have a feeling they might use the Apache as well since it is a German program, IIRC. Now for anti-shipping the Rafale will be using the obsolete Exocet while the Eurofighter can employ the Harpoon, the Penguin, and the Sea Eagle. These are all very amazing missiles in their roles and the Harpoon is getting better. For anti-radiation the Eurofighter can employ either the ALARM or the HARM. The HARM AGM-88E will be the most advanced ARM in the world and will surpass the ALARM as it has already done. The French use a version of the ARMAT IIRC. In every respect the Eurofighter will win hands down. It is highly agile, stealthy, very advanced with a Pirate IRST that can track as far as 80KM in good weather, that is truly amazing. Plus they will be employing data-link for the BVRAAM which will most likely also work with the AIM-120. Personally I'd take the Eurofighter over anything Europe has to offer and that is saying a lot because I do love that Tornado, that's a mean tough aircraft!

Author:	KAPTOR [ Thu Sep 11, 2003 01:34 am ]
Post subject:	Re: EF-2000 vs Rafale
I was a BIG fan of Rafale when the program started, but it never lived up to what I thought it would be, it's a dissapointment. Yeah the EuroPhoon is a cool cat I like it alot, prefer the Gripen over the Europhoon myself but it doesnt have the loadout of EuroPhoon.

Author:	da big man! [ Thu Sep 11, 2003 13:41 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: EF-2000 vs Rafale
EF-2000 is a good plane, but it's about the ugliest damned thing I've ever seen.

Author:	CAG Hotshot [ Thu Sep 11, 2003 13:58 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: EF-2000 vs Rafale
Big, you really think the Typhoon is ugly? I think it's beautiful! It just radiates power, like the old F-4 always did... Looking like its straining at its hold back chalks to go and kill MiGs!

Author:	da big man! [ Thu Sep 11, 2003 14:04 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: EF-2000 vs Rafale
Those canards, while they inhance performence- I just think it takes away a planes sexiness.

Author:	CAG Hotshot [ Thu Sep 11, 2003 16:05 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: EF-2000 vs Rafale
LOL!! I never heard that before... I kind of think of them as an extended claw about to slam a MiG into the Ground! Besides its a British design, and I respect them with their strong stand with us despite what the rest of NATO thinks and the Frogs say...

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Author:	da big man! [ Thu Sep 11, 2003 16:19 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: EF-2000 vs Rafale
Yeah me too, but maybe they could make the canards smaller and less visible. Like with the B-1s. Big canards are like big zits in terms of how good looking a plane is IMO.