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PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2003 16:30 pm 
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I know that it shot down 4 Libyan MiGs and Sus. But how much more a2a action has the F-14 seen?

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 Post subject: re: F-14 Kills
PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2003 00:18 am 
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In the 1st Persian Gulf War an F-14 got a confirmed kill against a Mi-17 Hip with a Sidewinder. ACIG.org lists 1 "close call/damage" with a Sparrow against a Foxbat, and 1 unconfirmed against a Mirage F-1EQ with a Pheonix.

The F-14 in Iranian service apparently has extensive kills against Iraqi aircraft:

http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_210.shtml

Zephyr


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2003 19:53 pm 
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That thing says the F-14 has over 100 kills, I thought it was around 30 or something like that.....

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2003 14:07 pm 
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According to this site, most of the F-14s in Iran were forced to stay on the ground due to the lack of spare parts.

So how could it have possibly shot down nearly 200 Iraqi planes, like ACIG says?

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2003 14:58 pm 
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Well according to that MATs link the Iranians ran out of AIM-54 missiles by 1986. They had 270 missiles.. They had to shoot them at something, right? (all in the paragraph on the page you linked to)

So it stands to reason they would achieve kills with them... Therefore I agree with both sites...


BTW Da Big, I like your Tomcat Avatar...


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2003 16:14 pm 
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Yes but the AIM-54 isn't very accurate at all. I doubt it would have scored many kills against manuverable MiGs and Mirage aircraft.

Quote:
A few Iranian F-14s are believed to have been shot down during the war, with the Iranian F-14s claiming a small number of kills of their own. It is known that the Soviet Union obtained both the F-14 and the Phoenix missile for reverse-engineering from Iran. It is unclear if this was done by the Iranian Islamic Republic's government or by a defecting Iranian pilot. F-14 technology may have influenced development of the Soviet MiG-31 "Foxhound" or "Super Foxbat", and it seems very likely that the Phoenix had a strong influence on the Soviet "AA-9 Amos" AAM, since the two missiles closely resemble each other externally.


http://www.vectorsite.net/avtomcat.html

The above is a quote from the 'Tomcat in Iranian Service' section.

This contradicts ACIG, because I don't think that 200 kills can be considered a small number.

BTW- It is a nice avatar aint it? It took me forever to find one that would fit on the google image search.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2003 16:18 pm 
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Actually that is quite incorrect and a blantant misconception of the missile... At its maximum range it is indeed low on energy and is not a dogfight missile, however at medium ranges it has more 'smash' them the AMRAAM and at close range it goes active right off the rails and can pull many multiple G levels while under power. Its quite deadly, but the only reason the USN has no confirmed kills is they have used the weapon at max range outside good PK and under the control of AWACs, which the Iranians did not have AWACs and thus used the weapons well within the maxiumum range, so their PKs was alot higher against maneuvering targets...


Last edited by CAG Hotshot on Mon Dec 08, 2003 17:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: re: Tomcat
PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2003 16:38 pm 
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It is known that the Soviet Union obtained both the F-14 and the Phoenix missile for reverse-engineering from Iran.


From what I've seen this is completely incorrect. I've never seen any evidence that the Soviets got a Tomcat or Pheonix. And the similar configuration of the Amos and the Pheonix (similar to a host of other ATG missiles and SAMs as well) is not evidence.

Quote:
In any case, the Phoenix was compromised at the same time that the AIM-54C variant was in development. As a result, the missile's development program was modified to ensure that the new variant of the Phoenix could defeat countermeasures developed against older variants.


This is the only place I've ever heard that the AIM-54C was "compromised." IIRC the C model was initiated in part because the A had been compromised as it was in the hands of an unfriendly Iran.

About the kill numbers... ACIG.org is maybe the only source that claims that the Iranians got Pheonix kills, and indeed they are one of the few sources that contend that there was actually extensive air-to-air combat in Iran-Iraq. That's because they're one of the only sources to actually go to Iran and Iraq and research first hand. Basically every other source is dated and/or relying on second hand info.

Zephyr


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2003 17:01 pm 
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dont really feel like talking today but, the AIM-54 can pulll 17Gs, pretty low for a A2A missle (at mach 4 or 5 it dont take much arc to pull a lot of Gs), but with a dive attack and it's large warhead it's more than enough against a non maneuvering target and most maneuvering ones as well.

Zeph I read your quote as saying phoenix was compromised while the C was in developement, so it would be the original A model that got comped, the C would have still been under heavy secrecy. Timing of when the C upgrade started vs the overthrow of the Shah would tell the tale.

The evidence about what the F-14 did in Iranian service all comes from 1 or 2 "journalists" (I can find thier names if I have too) who alegedly went there and conducted interviews, put as much validity in that as you want, I have no idea. But they also said an F-14 was shot down by an F-1C so....

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2003 17:14 pm 
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I believe this... Without effective AWACs the aircraft of both sides blundered about the sky. When they found a contact they engaged. Phoenix does not give a launch warning. No tell tale RWR inidicitation that a missile was on the way. What the Iraqis learned from this was to evade as soon as locked up by a AWG... If there had not been heavy losses they would not have learned this lesson as they would not have known they were being fired upon until hit and they would not have learned to to a 180 and run like hell whenever engaged by a Tomcat...


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2003 23:16 pm 
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BTW- there are some people on Nation States that are telling me that F-15s and F-16s can easily be tweaked to carry the Phoenix.

Is this true?

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2003 01:29 am 
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the early Phoenix's no way, there was a lot of cooling gear required by the carrier aircraft, but as I understand it the C model has all this self contained now. I have also heard that it is a software change that could be implemented

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2003 10:52 am 
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da big man! wrote:
BTW- there are some people on Nation States that are telling me that F-15s and F-16s can easily be tweaked to carry the Phoenix.

Is this true?


Most of the people on there don't know shit about weaponry.

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 Post subject: Re: re: Tomcat
PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2003 11:16 am 
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Zephyr wrote:
Quote:
It is known that the Soviet Union obtained both the F-14 and the Phoenix missile for reverse-engineering from Iran.


From what I've seen this is completely incorrect. I've never seen any evidence that the Soviets got a Tomcat or Pheonix. And the similar configuration of the Amos and the Pheonix (similar to a host of other ATG missiles and SAMs as well) is not evidence.

Quote:
In any case, the Phoenix was compromised at the same time that the AIM-54C variant was in development. As a result, the missile's development program was modified to ensure that the new variant of the Phoenix could defeat countermeasures developed against older variants.


This is the only place I've ever heard that the AIM-54C was "compromised." IIRC the C model was initiated in part because the A had been compromised as it was in the hands of an unfriendly Iran.

About the kill numbers... ACIG.org is maybe the only source that claims that the Iranians got Pheonix kills, and indeed they are one of the few sources that contend that there was actually extensive air-to-air combat in Iran-Iraq. That's because they're one of the only sources to actually go to Iran and Iraq and research first hand. Basically every other source is dated and/or relying on second hand info.

Zephyr


The AA-9 is the best evidence and cannot be discounted, the very best evidence that Russia got stuff from Iran. They did not have long-range missile capability in that form until Iran got F-14s and until the revolution when Iran was no longer an allie.

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 Post subject: re: Pheonix
PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2003 12:51 pm 
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Quote:
The AA-9 is the best evidence and cannot be discounted, the very best evidence that Russia got stuff from Iran. They did not have long-range missile capability in that form until Iran got F-14s and until the revolution when Iran was no longer an allie.


Not at all. Iran was never an ally of the USSR, and there is no evidence of any defections to Russia by Iranians. The development of the R-33 began when the Iranians were just receiving Tomcats, and the R-33 differs signficantly from the Pheonix (one way being that it has shorter range). The R-33 is not a watershed development in long range missile capabilities- compared to the R-40 Acrid the R-33 is simply the next step. The fact that they look "similar in form" means nothing- look how many other Russian missiles that predate the R-33 look similar to the Pheonix. But the burden of proof is not on my shoulders- show me one scrap of evidence, other than "visual similarities", that the Russians recieved a defecting Tomcat or a Pheonix. Interestingly, the Russians deny having recieved those two, while they gloat about all of their other spying and technology exploitation.

Zephyr


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