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Ali
PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2012 17:59 pm 
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Location: Canada/Sicily
hi guys hows it going. i have a question about pt file editing. i have already looked at the pt file explained manual but im still stuck on something. i want to reduce the maneuverability of a hawker hurricane type aircraft. i have already limited it to 6Gs and di reduce some values in the .pt file like bank rate but the aircraft still rotates better than a raptor. it also has a tendency to get lift failure at 212kts. it has a maximum speed of 300kts which i have defined in the pt file. any help to make these aircraft less maneuverable is appreciated. thanks.

ps: what does "puffRot.x.min" mean?

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KAPTOR
PostPosted: Sat May 05, 2012 01:39 am 
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You have to edit the envelope itself and commit yourself to literally dozens of hours of flying in left turns at various weights, speeds and altitudes if you want to do it right.

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Ali
PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2012 22:17 pm 
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hey kaptor. that's what i thought, and i dont mind since its summer now 8) im working on that, so does that mean just changing the speed and altitude values in FATK? how will that help mobility?

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KAPTOR
PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2012 23:01 pm 
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Ya know with FA farting all over itself on my puter ( it won't even run most of the time without giving a "video mode" error ), I haven't flown it in months, maybee close to two years, I don't even have Tool Kit installed anymore so I have to do this from memory.

At the top of the particular aircraft page ( your Spitfire for instance ) you have all those tabs, "hardpoints" "sounds" "engines" and such. One of them opens up the aircraft envelope. Each "G" will have a graph called a doghouse, you have to edit those data points, they are in feet for altitude and feet per second for speed. Just to make things fun, each G chart affects the one before and the one after including negative Gs. Also, everything on the "aerodynamics" tab will affect what you do in the envelope editing so it is an almost never ending cascade of tweaks until you get it to do what you want it to do. As you add or remove weapons, as you add or remove fuel as you add or remove thrust as you add or remove fuel burn rate it will all change.
I actually got used to four hours of sleep for months on end while editing for my Kapsets and especially for CAGs FAF where we blew the roof off of what everyone thought FA was capable of. We then went on to make accurate air to air only RADARs, air to ground only RADARs, multimode RADARs, and period specific RADARs ( older planes have older RADARs with different capabilities ) greatly improved IR and optical sensors and so on.

I had the data for real F-16 doghouse charts and would you believe my F-16 has a more accurate maneuverability than Falcon 4 back then!

Good luck, and may god have mercy on your soul lol.

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Speedy
PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2012 23:07 pm 
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Kaptor's right about the flight envelope being quite a chore to modify, but speaking specifically of the roll rate issue, you can change roll acceleration, deceleration, and full roll rate in the .PT file. I'm fairly certain the ".PT file Explained" file Zephyr has in the downloads/info section of the site has it, it's pretty straightforward. Maybe you could look a little closer at it.

Besides changing the roll acceleration rate, you also have to change the full roll rate. If you're having trouble figuring out which ones to change, just open up the F-22 or X-31 file (fastest rolls in the stock game iirc) and compare it with something noticeably slower.

You could also try posting the .PT file so we could see which parts of it you modified.
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Ali
PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2012 23:18 pm 
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KAPTOR wrote:
Ya know with FA farting all over itself on my puter ( it won't even run most of the time without giving a "video mode" error ), I haven't flown it in months, maybee close to two years, I don't even have Tool Kit installed anymore so I have to do this from memory.

At the top of the particular aircraft page ( your Spitfire for instance ) you have all those tabs, "hardpoints" "sounds" "engines" and such. One of them opens up the aircraft envelope. Each "G" will have a graph called a doghouse, you have to edit those data points, they are in feet for altitude and feet per second for speed. Just to make things fun, each G chart affects the one before and the one after including negative Gs. Also, everything on the "aerodynamics" tab will affect what you do in the envelope editing so it is an almost never ending cascade of tweaks until you get it to do what you want it to do. As you add or remove weapons, as you add or remove fuel as you add or remove thrust as you add or remove fuel burn rate it will all change.
I actually got used to four hours of sleep for months on end while editing for my Kapsets and especially for CAGs FAF where we blew the roof off of what everyone thought FA was capable of. We then went on to make accurate air to air only RADARs, air to ground only RADARs, multimode RADARs, and period specific RADARs ( older planes have older RADARs with different capabilities ) greatly improved IR and optical sensors and so on.

I had the data for real F-16 doghouse charts and would you believe my F-16 has a more accurate maneuverability than Falcon 4 back then!

Good luck, and may god have mercy on your soul lol.


lol thanks and no doubt the genius talents of FA people like yourself and CAG. i remeber quite well what you guys had done and cag still amazes me to date with SS of his progress. Indeed FA has a lot of potential for improvement. i had no idea about this chain reaction or relation of G-envelope data and what is in the aerodynamics tabs. i have already edited the g data etc. rate of climb seems to match the aircrafts spec according to wikipedia lol. however dive is much MUCH superior to real world data, i think i need to reduce aerodynamics and improve thrust. im guessing just a weeks work on 1 aircraft and i was hoping to do the following:
air cobras, boston, p40, p47, p51, sb2c, sbd6, ju87, ju88, a26, b-17, b-24, b-29, a6m2, a6m5, f4f, f4u, f6f, he111, il2, yak1, yak3, yak8, lag5, mig1...list goes on so ya i will need some mercy.

Speedy wrote:
Kaptor's right about the flight envelope being quite a chore to modify, but speaking specifically of the roll rate issue, you can change roll acceleration, deceleration, and full roll rate in the .PT file. I'm fairly certain the ".PT file Explained" file Zephyr has in the downloads/info section of the site has it, it's pretty straightforward. Maybe you could look a little closer at it.

Besides changing the roll acceleration rate, you also have to change the full roll rate. If you're having trouble figuring out which ones to change, just open up the F-22 or X-31 file (fastest rolls in the stock game iirc) and compare it with something noticeably slower.

You could also try posting the .PT file so we could see which parts of it you modified.


i tried changing the role rates, at least i think i did but with no results. aircraft still outturns a rapotor in a dogfight despite pulling only 5.5gs. here is the pt file:
Code:
[brent's_relocatable_format]

;---------------- START OF OBJ_TYPE ----------------


;---------------- general info ----------------

    byte 5
    word 516
    word 524
   ptr ot_names
    dword $12bf3
    word $8000
   ptr shape
   ptr shadowShape
    dword 0
    dword 0
    word 30
    word 0
    word 0
    dword 0
    dword 0
    word 0
    word 20
    word -30
    dword 0
    dword 1956
    word 148
    word 0
    word 70
    word 77
    word 100
    word 100
    word 0
    word 95
    word 255
    word 255
    word 255
    word 255
    word 255
    byte 30
    byte 0
    dword 5745
    word 199

;---------------- movement info ----------------

    word 0
    word 10920
    word 10920
    word -1274
    word 10010
    word 0
    word 0
    word 0
    dword ^0
    dword ^0
    dword ^60
    dword ^36000
   symbol _PLANEProc   ; utilProc

;---------------- sound info ----------------

   ptr loopSound
   ptr secondSound
   ptr engineOnSound
   ptr engineOffSound
    byte 1
    word 15000
    word 320
    word 160
    word 20
    word 1600
    word 1
    word 11
    word 32
   ptr hudName



;---------------- END OF OBJ_TYPE ----------------


;---------------- START OF NPC_TYPE ----------------

    dword $0
   ptr ctName
    byte 12
    byte 32
    byte 20
    word 32767
    word 0
    byte 3
   ptr hards

;---------------- END OF NPC_TYPE ----------------


;---------------- START OF PLANE_TYPE ----------------

    dword $52
   ptr env
    word -2
    word 6
    word 514
    word 530
    word -73
    word 0
    word 51
    word 51
    word -146
    word 146
    word 7
    word 7
    word -146
    word 146
    word 73
    word 73
    word -180
    word 180
    word 286
    word 571
    word 0
    word 0
    word 6
    word 6
    word -45
    word 45
    word 90
    word 90
    word 20
    word 70
    word 15
    word 124
    word -3
    word 3
    word 3
    word 9
    word 10
    word 128
    word 5
    word -90
    word 90
    word 286
    word 571
    word -90
    word 90
    word 286
    word 571
    word -90
    word 90
    word 286
    word 571
    word 512
    word 512
    word 222
    word 30
    word 1
    word -2
    word 120
    word 180
    word 30
    word 70
    word 15
    word 5
    word 5
    word 180
    word 31
    word 60
    word 20
    word 10
    byte 1
    word 7680
    dword 2300
    dword 2600
    word 20
    word 30
    word 0
    word 0
    word 0
    word 0
    word 1
    dword 675
    word 256
    word 72
    word 125
    word 48
    word 76
    word 23
    word 0
    word 51
    word 22
    word 13
    word 36
    word 36
    word 36
    word 514
    word 530
    byte 20
    byte 22
    byte 20
    byte 148
    byte 22
    byte 20
    byte 20
    byte 20
    byte 20
    byte 148
    byte 148
    byte 148
    byte 20
    byte 20
    byte 20
    byte 148
    byte 20
    byte 22
    byte 20
    byte 20
    byte 20
    byte 22
    byte 22
    byte 20
    byte 20
    byte 20
    byte 148
    byte 22
    byte 36
    byte 148
    byte 36
    byte 0
    byte 0
    byte 0
    byte 22
    byte 150
    byte 20
    byte 22
    byte 22
    byte 22
    byte 6
    byte 6
    byte 6
    byte 6
    byte 6
    word 10
    word 10
    dword 7670
:hards
;-------- hardpoint 0
    word $8
    word 0
    word 0
    word 0
    word 0
    word 0
    word 0
    word 0
   ptr defaultTypeName0
    byte 0
    word 1
    byte 1
;-------- hardpoint 1
    word $d
    word 15
    word -7
    word -4
    word 0
    word 0
    word 0
    word 0
   ptr defaultTypeName1
    byte 0
    word 1200
    byte 2
;-------- hardpoint 2
    word $1505
    word 20
    word -10
    word -7
    word 0
    word 0
    word 0
    word 0
    dword 0
    byte 5
    word 2
    byte 4

:env;--- envelope for G = -2
    word -2
    word 8
    word 3
    word 6
    word 160
    dword 0
    word 190
    dword 9000
    word 200
    dword 11000
    word 220
    dword 12000
    word 255
    dword 12000
    word 287
    dword 11000
    word 307
    dword 10000
    word 320
    dword 0
    word 0
    dword 0
    word 0
    dword 0
    word 0
    dword 0
    word 0
    dword 0
    word 0
    dword 0
    word 0
    dword 0
    word 0
    dword 0
    word 0
    dword 0
    word 0
    dword 0
    word 0
    dword 0
    word 0
    dword 0
    word 0
    dword 0

;--- envelope for G = -1
    word -1
    word 8
    word 3
    word 6
    word 110
    dword 0
    word 140
    dword 9000
    word 180
    dword 17000
    word 210
    dword 19000
    word 265
    dword 19000
    word 297
    dword 18000
    word 307
    dword 16000
    word 320
    dword 0
    word 0
    dword 0
    word 0
    dword 0
    word 0
    dword 0
    word 0
    dword 0
    word 0
    dword 0
    word 0
    dword 0
    word 0
    dword 0
    word 0
    dword 0
    word 0
    dword 0
    word 0
    dword 0
    word 0
    dword 0
    word 0
    dword 0

;--- envelope for G = 0
    word 0
    word 8
    word 3
    word 7
    word 100
    dword 0
    word 145
    dword 13000
    word 185
    dword 21750
    word 230
    dword 36000
    word 285
    dword 36000
    word 322
    dword 24000
    word 342
    dword 18000
    word 360
    dword 0
    word 430
    dword 0
    word 0
    dword 0
    word 0
    dword 0
    word 0
    dword 0
    word 0
    dword 0
    word 0
    dword 0
    word 0
    dword 0
    word 0
    dword 0
    word 0
    dword 0
    word 0
    dword 0
    word 0
    dword 0
    word 0
    dword 0

;--- envelope for G = 1
    word 1
    word 8
    word 3
    word 7
    word 110
    dword 0
    word 160
    dword 14000
    word 210
    dword 24000
    word 230
    dword 34000
    word 285
    dword 34000
    word 317
    dword 23000
    word 327
    dword 20000
    word 421
    dword 0
    word 430
    dword 0
    word 0
    dword 0
    word 0
    dword 0
    word 0
    dword 0
    word 0
    dword 0
    word 0
    dword 0
    word 0
    dword 0
    word 0
    dword 0
    word 0
    dword 0
    word 0
    dword 0
    word 0
    dword 0
    word 0
    dword 0

;--- envelope for G = 2
    word 2
    word 8
    word 3
    word 7
    word 130
    dword 0
    word 160
    dword 10000
    word 190
    dword 17000
    word 220
    dword 32000
    word 255
    dword 32000
    word 287
    dword 29000
    word 307
    dword 18000
    word 320
    dword 0
    word 430
    dword 0
    word 0
    dword 0
    word 0
    dword 0
    word 0
    dword 0
    word 0
    dword 0
    word 0
    dword 0
    word 0
    dword 0
    word 0
    dword 0
    word 0
    dword 0
    word 0
    dword 0
    word 0
    dword 0
    word 0
    dword 0

;--- envelope for G = 3
    word 3
    word 8
    word 3
    word 7
    word 160
    dword 0
    word 190
    dword 9000
    word 200
    dword 16000
    word 220
    dword 31000
    word 255
    dword 31000
    word 287
    dword 18000
    word 307
    dword 14000
    word 320
    dword 0
    word 430
    dword 0
    word 0
    dword 0
    word 0
    dword 0
    word 0
    dword 0
    word 0
    dword 0
    word 0
    dword 0
    word 0
    dword 0
    word 0
    dword 0
    word 0
    dword 0
    word 0
    dword 0
    word 0
    dword 0
    word 0
    dword 0

;--- envelope for G = 4
    word 4
    word 6
    word 2
    word 5
    word 180
    dword 0
    word 210
    dword 13000
    word 220
    dword 30000
    word 255
    dword 30000
    word 310
    dword 13000
    word 320
    dword 0
    word 307
    dword 14000
    word 320
    dword 0
    word 430
    dword 0
    word 0
    dword 0
    word 0
    dword 0
    word 0
    dword 0
    word 0
    dword 0
    word 0
    dword 0
    word 0
    dword 0
    word 0
    dword 0
    word 0
    dword 0
    word 0
    dword 0
    word 0
    dword 0
    word 0
    dword 0

;--- envelope for G = 5
    word 5
    word 6
    word 2
    word 5
    word 200
    dword 0
    word 220
    dword 11000
    word 230
    dword 27000
    word 255
    dword 27000
    word 310
    dword 11000
    word 320
    dword 0
    word 307
    dword 14000
    word 320
    dword 0
    word 430
    dword 0
    word 0
    dword 0
    word 0
    dword 0
    word 0
    dword 0
    word 0
    dword 0
    word 0
    dword 0
    word 0
    dword 0
    word 0
    dword 0
    word 0
    dword 0
    word 0
    dword 0
    word 0
    dword 0
    word 0
    dword 0

;--- envelope for G = 6
    word 6
    word 4
    word 1
    word 2
    word 220
    dword 0
    word 230
    dword 22000
    word 310
    dword 22000
    word 310
    dword 0
    word 310
    dword 11000
    word 320
    dword 0
    word 307
    dword 14000
    word 320
    dword 0
    word 430
    dword 0
    word 0
    dword 0
    word 0
    dword 0
    word 0
    dword 0
    word 0
    dword 0
    word 0
    dword 0
    word 0
    dword 0
    word 0
    dword 0
    word 0
    dword 0
    word 0
    dword 0
    word 0
    dword 0
    word 0
    dword 0
;-------------------------------- A-1
; 4G area = 0.190600
; 5G area = 0.153000
; 6G area = 0.077550
; 3 = rating for A-1

;---------------- END OF PLANE_TYPE ----------------

:ot_names
   string "Hurricane"
   string "(RAF)  Hurricane Mk.IIA"
   string "HH.PT"
:shape
   string "hsf.SH"
:shadowShape
   string "kin_s.SH"
:loopSound
   string "&prop16.11K"
:secondSound
   string "&prop20.11K"
:engineOnSound
   string "&propon2.11K"
:engineOffSound
   string "&prp2off.5K"
:hudName
   string "a7.HUD"
:ctName
   string "f.BI"
:defaultTypeName0
   string "VIS240.SEE"
:defaultTypeName1
   string "M113.JT"
   end


link to pt file explained
http://farc.3synergy.net/misc/PT_layout_6.zip

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Speedy
PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2012 01:30 am 
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Posts: 142
Location: Taiwan
;---------------- START OF PLANE_TYPE ----------------

dword $52
ptr env
word -2
word 6
word 514
word 530
word -73
word 0
word 51
word 51
word -146
word 146
word 7
word 7
word -146
word 146
word 73
word 73
word -180 <--- I don't have FA on my computer right now, but this should be the right place, -180 refers to bank left
word 180 <--- and 180 refers to bank right
word 286 <--- the PT_layout file lists this as Pull Up or Down Rate, but I *think* it's actually rate of roll.
word 571 <--- and this is the roll deceleration speed

i.e. the 180 above should refer to max roll speed, but 286 refers to how fast the aircraft actually starts rolling, and 571 is how long it takes to slow down. So for example, if you set it to -360//360//80//80, you'd have an aircraft that rolls like a brick initially, but will eventually barrel roll around ridiculously fast.

Let me know if I'm wrong, but I'm fairly certain this is how it works (from memory)

------

If you're talking about simply outturning the Raptor, then that's an issue of turn radius and not roll rate, and it's a lot more flight model work, like the stuff Kaptor was talking about. Chances are though, the flight envelope for the aircraft has it capable of pulling Gs at a much lower speed than the Raptor can (though this seems unlikely as the stock Raptor has ridiculous low speed maneuverability), and that's why it has such a tight turn radius, despite pulling few Gs. You're in a prop plane so your effective speed is much lower - I don't have the Raptor's FM with me, but I'm not certain it's capable of pulling 5 Gs at 300 kts, which a prop plane certainly can fairly easily.
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Ali
PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2012 16:23 pm 
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Posts: 411
Location: Canada/Sicily
hmm this is one from a b-52:


;---------------- START OF PLANE_TYPE ----------------

dword $15
ptr env
word -2
word 3
word 651
word 904
word -73
word 0
word 73
word 73
word -146
word 146
word 7
word 7
word -146
word 146
word 73
word 73
word -30 <-- pretty small value
word 30
word 21
word 42

are you sure its not the opposite considering that this is actually the roll speed, smaller number means less manuverability

and this is one from a raptor
;---------------- START OF PLANE_TYPE ----------------

dword $91
ptr env
word -4
word 9
word 1899
word 2219
word -73
word 0
word 73
word 73
word -146
word 146
word 7
word 7
word -146
word 146
word 73
word 73
word -360
word 360
word 526
word 1352

im thinking of using values
word -105
word 105
word 106
word 212

edit: ok these values dont seem to be making much difference. the aircraft has crazy rate of turn at only 2.6g. it is certainly harder to do a barrel roll as yaw is slow now but it still pulls hard when you turn.

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Speedy
PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2012 21:05 pm 
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Posts: 142
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Ali wrote:
hmm this is one from a b-52:


;---------------- START OF PLANE_TYPE ----------------

dword $15
ptr env
word -2
word 3
word 651
word 904
word -73
word 0
word 73
word 73
word -146
word 146
word 7
word 7
word -146
word 146
word 73
word 73
word -30 <-- pretty small value
word 30
word 21
word 42

are you sure its not the opposite considering that this is actually the roll speed, smaller number means less manuverability

and this is one from a raptor
;---------------- START OF PLANE_TYPE ----------------

dword $91
ptr env
word -4
word 9
word 1899
word 2219
word -73
word 0
word 73
word 73
word -146
word 146
word 7
word 7
word -146
word 146
word 73
word 73
word -360
word 360
word 526
word 1352

im thinking of using values
word -105
word 105
word 106
word 212

edit: ok these values dont seem to be making much difference. the aircraft has crazy rate of turn at only 2.6g. it is certainly harder to do a barrel roll as yaw is slow now but it still pulls hard when you turn.


Yeah, now I'm fairly certain of what it means. When I said "rolls like a brick" it was kind of relative to how fast it *could* go eventually, but of course 80 is still a lot faster than the B-52's 30.

These numbers here are only referring to top roll rate, and rate of roll acceleration and deceleration. The B-52's roll rate is 30, it accelerates into the roll at 21, and decelerates at 42. For the Raptor, the roll rate is 360, it accelerates into the roll at 526 (so it instantly reaches max), and decelerates at 1352. CAG did something interesting with this in the Futures LIB if I remember correctly, with a damaged A-10 only able to roll effectively towards one side and not the other.

The most noticeable difference is when you have a roll rate higher than acceleration. For example, suppose you set something to

word -270
word 270
word 120
word 120

You'll have an aircraft that doesn't seem to respond nearly as quickly to your input, in that it doesn't roll that quickly initially, but eventually will be spinning fast. I personally always do this for my aircraft, because it feels a lot more like planes from other sims.

Regarding how hard you can pull, that's Flight Model, and you can't really edit it here. Technically you *can*, but the Flight Model is a lot easier to change through the FATK.
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KAPTOR
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 01:42 am 
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FYI a B-52 would have a roll rate accel far higher than a decel due to it's lack of ailerons. You can get it started but it can be damn hard to stop.

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Speedy
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 01:58 am 
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KAPTOR wrote:
FYI a B-52 would have a roll rate accel far higher than a decel due to it's lack of ailerons. You can get it started but it can be damn hard to stop.


(in which case you'd have the deceleration set way lower than the 42 it's set at by default)
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Ali
PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2012 00:51 am 
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ok thanks i think i get the hang of it now. it looks like the envelope parameters are more important than anything else here, need to get working on that.

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CAG Hotshot
PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2012 00:53 am 
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Wish I could be of help to you Ali... But PT editing isnt my strong point.

Have you looked at the improved (more detailed description) PT file I posted a while back on the FAF Forums?

http://vnfawing.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=719

Your membership is active there so if you need me to reset your password let me know...

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Ali
PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2012 22:35 pm 
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thanks a bunch cag. yes i forgot my password lol so i cant access the file.

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Ali
PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2012 17:17 pm 
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ok fresh problems. i can no longer add any vehicles to FA. doesnt matter in which lib or project, as soon as i create a new vehicle the game crashes. anyone experienced this?

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