hey kaptor. that's what i thought, and i dont mind since its summer now
im working on that, so does that mean just changing the speed and altitude values in FATK? how will that help mobility?
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| how to reduce the maneuverability http://jkpeterson.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2105 |
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| Author: | Ali [ Fri May 04, 2012 17:59 pm ] |
| Post subject: | how to reduce the maneuverability |
hi guys hows it going. i have a question about pt file editing. i have already looked at the pt file explained manual but im still stuck on something. i want to reduce the maneuverability of a hawker hurricane type aircraft. i have already limited it to 6Gs and di reduce some values in the .pt file like bank rate but the aircraft still rotates better than a raptor. it also has a tendency to get lift failure at 212kts. it has a maximum speed of 300kts which i have defined in the pt file. any help to make these aircraft less maneuverable is appreciated. thanks. ps: what does "puffRot.x.min" mean? |
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| Author: | KAPTOR [ Sat May 05, 2012 01:39 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: how to reduce the maneuverability |
You have to edit the envelope itself and commit yourself to literally dozens of hours of flying in left turns at various weights, speeds and altitudes if you want to do it right. |
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| Author: | Ali [ Sun May 06, 2012 22:17 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: how to reduce the maneuverability |
hey kaptor. that's what i thought, and i dont mind since its summer now im working on that, so does that mean just changing the speed and altitude values in FATK? how will that help mobility?
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| Author: | KAPTOR [ Sun May 06, 2012 23:01 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: how to reduce the maneuverability |
Ya know with FA farting all over itself on my puter ( it won't even run most of the time without giving a "video mode" error ), I haven't flown it in months, maybee close to two years, I don't even have Tool Kit installed anymore so I have to do this from memory. At the top of the particular aircraft page ( your Spitfire for instance ) you have all those tabs, "hardpoints" "sounds" "engines" and such. One of them opens up the aircraft envelope. Each "G" will have a graph called a doghouse, you have to edit those data points, they are in feet for altitude and feet per second for speed. Just to make things fun, each G chart affects the one before and the one after including negative Gs. Also, everything on the "aerodynamics" tab will affect what you do in the envelope editing so it is an almost never ending cascade of tweaks until you get it to do what you want it to do. As you add or remove weapons, as you add or remove fuel as you add or remove thrust as you add or remove fuel burn rate it will all change. I actually got used to four hours of sleep for months on end while editing for my Kapsets and especially for CAGs FAF where we blew the roof off of what everyone thought FA was capable of. We then went on to make accurate air to air only RADARs, air to ground only RADARs, multimode RADARs, and period specific RADARs ( older planes have older RADARs with different capabilities ) greatly improved IR and optical sensors and so on. I had the data for real F-16 doghouse charts and would you believe my F-16 has a more accurate maneuverability than Falcon 4 back then! Good luck, and may god have mercy on your soul lol. |
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| Author: | Speedy [ Sun May 06, 2012 23:07 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: how to reduce the maneuverability |
Kaptor's right about the flight envelope being quite a chore to modify, but speaking specifically of the roll rate issue, you can change roll acceleration, deceleration, and full roll rate in the .PT file. I'm fairly certain the ".PT file Explained" file Zephyr has in the downloads/info section of the site has it, it's pretty straightforward. Maybe you could look a little closer at it. Besides changing the roll acceleration rate, you also have to change the full roll rate. If you're having trouble figuring out which ones to change, just open up the F-22 or X-31 file (fastest rolls in the stock game iirc) and compare it with something noticeably slower. You could also try posting the .PT file so we could see which parts of it you modified. |
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| Author: | Ali [ Sun May 06, 2012 23:18 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: how to reduce the maneuverability |
KAPTOR wrote: Ya know with FA farting all over itself on my puter ( it won't even run most of the time without giving a "video mode" error ), I haven't flown it in months, maybee close to two years, I don't even have Tool Kit installed anymore so I have to do this from memory. At the top of the particular aircraft page ( your Spitfire for instance ) you have all those tabs, "hardpoints" "sounds" "engines" and such. One of them opens up the aircraft envelope. Each "G" will have a graph called a doghouse, you have to edit those data points, they are in feet for altitude and feet per second for speed. Just to make things fun, each G chart affects the one before and the one after including negative Gs. Also, everything on the "aerodynamics" tab will affect what you do in the envelope editing so it is an almost never ending cascade of tweaks until you get it to do what you want it to do. As you add or remove weapons, as you add or remove fuel as you add or remove thrust as you add or remove fuel burn rate it will all change. I actually got used to four hours of sleep for months on end while editing for my Kapsets and especially for CAGs FAF where we blew the roof off of what everyone thought FA was capable of. We then went on to make accurate air to air only RADARs, air to ground only RADARs, multimode RADARs, and period specific RADARs ( older planes have older RADARs with different capabilities ) greatly improved IR and optical sensors and so on. I had the data for real F-16 doghouse charts and would you believe my F-16 has a more accurate maneuverability than Falcon 4 back then! Good luck, and may god have mercy on your soul lol. lol thanks and no doubt the genius talents of FA people like yourself and CAG. i remeber quite well what you guys had done and cag still amazes me to date with SS of his progress. Indeed FA has a lot of potential for improvement. i had no idea about this chain reaction or relation of G-envelope data and what is in the aerodynamics tabs. i have already edited the g data etc. rate of climb seems to match the aircrafts spec according to wikipedia lol. however dive is much MUCH superior to real world data, i think i need to reduce aerodynamics and improve thrust. im guessing just a weeks work on 1 aircraft and i was hoping to do the following: air cobras, boston, p40, p47, p51, sb2c, sbd6, ju87, ju88, a26, b-17, b-24, b-29, a6m2, a6m5, f4f, f4u, f6f, he111, il2, yak1, yak3, yak8, lag5, mig1...list goes on so ya i will need some mercy. Speedy wrote: Kaptor's right about the flight envelope being quite a chore to modify, but speaking specifically of the roll rate issue, you can change roll acceleration, deceleration, and full roll rate in the .PT file. I'm fairly certain the ".PT file Explained" file Zephyr has in the downloads/info section of the site has it, it's pretty straightforward. Maybe you could look a little closer at it. Besides changing the roll acceleration rate, you also have to change the full roll rate. If you're having trouble figuring out which ones to change, just open up the F-22 or X-31 file (fastest rolls in the stock game iirc) and compare it with something noticeably slower. You could also try posting the .PT file so we could see which parts of it you modified. i tried changing the role rates, at least i think i did but with no results. aircraft still outturns a rapotor in a dogfight despite pulling only 5.5gs. here is the pt file: Code: [brent's_relocatable_format] ;---------------- START OF OBJ_TYPE ---------------- ;---------------- general info ---------------- byte 5 word 516 word 524 ptr ot_names dword $12bf3 word $8000 ptr shape ptr shadowShape dword 0 dword 0 word 30 word 0 word 0 dword 0 dword 0 word 0 word 20 word -30 dword 0 dword 1956 word 148 word 0 word 70 word 77 word 100 word 100 word 0 word 95 word 255 word 255 word 255 word 255 word 255 byte 30 byte 0 dword 5745 word 199 ;---------------- movement info ---------------- word 0 word 10920 word 10920 word -1274 word 10010 word 0 word 0 word 0 dword ^0 dword ^0 dword ^60 dword ^36000 symbol _PLANEProc ; utilProc ;---------------- sound info ---------------- ptr loopSound ptr secondSound ptr engineOnSound ptr engineOffSound byte 1 word 15000 word 320 word 160 word 20 word 1600 word 1 word 11 word 32 ptr hudName ;---------------- END OF OBJ_TYPE ---------------- ;---------------- START OF NPC_TYPE ---------------- dword $0 ptr ctName byte 12 byte 32 byte 20 word 32767 word 0 byte 3 ptr hards ;---------------- END OF NPC_TYPE ---------------- ;---------------- START OF PLANE_TYPE ---------------- dword $52 ptr env word -2 word 6 word 514 word 530 word -73 word 0 word 51 word 51 word -146 word 146 word 7 word 7 word -146 word 146 word 73 word 73 word -180 word 180 word 286 word 571 word 0 word 0 word 6 word 6 word -45 word 45 word 90 word 90 word 20 word 70 word 15 word 124 word -3 word 3 word 3 word 9 word 10 word 128 word 5 word -90 word 90 word 286 word 571 word -90 word 90 word 286 word 571 word -90 word 90 word 286 word 571 word 512 word 512 word 222 word 30 word 1 word -2 word 120 word 180 word 30 word 70 word 15 word 5 word 5 word 180 word 31 word 60 word 20 word 10 byte 1 word 7680 dword 2300 dword 2600 word 20 word 30 word 0 word 0 word 0 word 0 word 1 dword 675 word 256 word 72 word 125 word 48 word 76 word 23 word 0 word 51 word 22 word 13 word 36 word 36 word 36 word 514 word 530 byte 20 byte 22 byte 20 byte 148 byte 22 byte 20 byte 20 byte 20 byte 20 byte 148 byte 148 byte 148 byte 20 byte 20 byte 20 byte 148 byte 20 byte 22 byte 20 byte 20 byte 20 byte 22 byte 22 byte 20 byte 20 byte 20 byte 148 byte 22 byte 36 byte 148 byte 36 byte 0 byte 0 byte 0 byte 22 byte 150 byte 20 byte 22 byte 22 byte 22 byte 6 byte 6 byte 6 byte 6 byte 6 word 10 word 10 dword 7670 :hards ;-------- hardpoint 0 word $8 word 0 word 0 word 0 word 0 word 0 word 0 word 0 ptr defaultTypeName0 byte 0 word 1 byte 1 ;-------- hardpoint 1 word $d word 15 word -7 word -4 word 0 word 0 word 0 word 0 ptr defaultTypeName1 byte 0 word 1200 byte 2 ;-------- hardpoint 2 word $1505 word 20 word -10 word -7 word 0 word 0 word 0 word 0 dword 0 byte 5 word 2 byte 4 :env;--- envelope for G = -2 word -2 word 8 word 3 word 6 word 160 dword 0 word 190 dword 9000 word 200 dword 11000 word 220 dword 12000 word 255 dword 12000 word 287 dword 11000 word 307 dword 10000 word 320 dword 0 word 0 dword 0 word 0 dword 0 word 0 dword 0 word 0 dword 0 word 0 dword 0 word 0 dword 0 word 0 dword 0 word 0 dword 0 word 0 dword 0 word 0 dword 0 word 0 dword 0 word 0 dword 0 ;--- envelope for G = -1 word -1 word 8 word 3 word 6 word 110 dword 0 word 140 dword 9000 word 180 dword 17000 word 210 dword 19000 word 265 dword 19000 word 297 dword 18000 word 307 dword 16000 word 320 dword 0 word 0 dword 0 word 0 dword 0 word 0 dword 0 word 0 dword 0 word 0 dword 0 word 0 dword 0 word 0 dword 0 word 0 dword 0 word 0 dword 0 word 0 dword 0 word 0 dword 0 word 0 dword 0 ;--- envelope for G = 0 word 0 word 8 word 3 word 7 word 100 dword 0 word 145 dword 13000 word 185 dword 21750 word 230 dword 36000 word 285 dword 36000 word 322 dword 24000 word 342 dword 18000 word 360 dword 0 word 430 dword 0 word 0 dword 0 word 0 dword 0 word 0 dword 0 word 0 dword 0 word 0 dword 0 word 0 dword 0 word 0 dword 0 word 0 dword 0 word 0 dword 0 word 0 dword 0 word 0 dword 0 ;--- envelope for G = 1 word 1 word 8 word 3 word 7 word 110 dword 0 word 160 dword 14000 word 210 dword 24000 word 230 dword 34000 word 285 dword 34000 word 317 dword 23000 word 327 dword 20000 word 421 dword 0 word 430 dword 0 word 0 dword 0 word 0 dword 0 word 0 dword 0 word 0 dword 0 word 0 dword 0 word 0 dword 0 word 0 dword 0 word 0 dword 0 word 0 dword 0 word 0 dword 0 word 0 dword 0 ;--- envelope for G = 2 word 2 word 8 word 3 word 7 word 130 dword 0 word 160 dword 10000 word 190 dword 17000 word 220 dword 32000 word 255 dword 32000 word 287 dword 29000 word 307 dword 18000 word 320 dword 0 word 430 dword 0 word 0 dword 0 word 0 dword 0 word 0 dword 0 word 0 dword 0 word 0 dword 0 word 0 dword 0 word 0 dword 0 word 0 dword 0 word 0 dword 0 word 0 dword 0 word 0 dword 0 ;--- envelope for G = 3 word 3 word 8 word 3 word 7 word 160 dword 0 word 190 dword 9000 word 200 dword 16000 word 220 dword 31000 word 255 dword 31000 word 287 dword 18000 word 307 dword 14000 word 320 dword 0 word 430 dword 0 word 0 dword 0 word 0 dword 0 word 0 dword 0 word 0 dword 0 word 0 dword 0 word 0 dword 0 word 0 dword 0 word 0 dword 0 word 0 dword 0 word 0 dword 0 word 0 dword 0 ;--- envelope for G = 4 word 4 word 6 word 2 word 5 word 180 dword 0 word 210 dword 13000 word 220 dword 30000 word 255 dword 30000 word 310 dword 13000 word 320 dword 0 word 307 dword 14000 word 320 dword 0 word 430 dword 0 word 0 dword 0 word 0 dword 0 word 0 dword 0 word 0 dword 0 word 0 dword 0 word 0 dword 0 word 0 dword 0 word 0 dword 0 word 0 dword 0 word 0 dword 0 word 0 dword 0 ;--- envelope for G = 5 word 5 word 6 word 2 word 5 word 200 dword 0 word 220 dword 11000 word 230 dword 27000 word 255 dword 27000 word 310 dword 11000 word 320 dword 0 word 307 dword 14000 word 320 dword 0 word 430 dword 0 word 0 dword 0 word 0 dword 0 word 0 dword 0 word 0 dword 0 word 0 dword 0 word 0 dword 0 word 0 dword 0 word 0 dword 0 word 0 dword 0 word 0 dword 0 word 0 dword 0 ;--- envelope for G = 6 word 6 word 4 word 1 word 2 word 220 dword 0 word 230 dword 22000 word 310 dword 22000 word 310 dword 0 word 310 dword 11000 word 320 dword 0 word 307 dword 14000 word 320 dword 0 word 430 dword 0 word 0 dword 0 word 0 dword 0 word 0 dword 0 word 0 dword 0 word 0 dword 0 word 0 dword 0 word 0 dword 0 word 0 dword 0 word 0 dword 0 word 0 dword 0 word 0 dword 0 ;-------------------------------- A-1 ; 4G area = 0.190600 ; 5G area = 0.153000 ; 6G area = 0.077550 ; 3 = rating for A-1 ;---------------- END OF PLANE_TYPE ---------------- :ot_names string "Hurricane" string "(RAF) Hurricane Mk.IIA" string "HH.PT" :shape string "hsf.SH" :shadowShape string "kin_s.SH" :loopSound string "&prop16.11K" :secondSound string "&prop20.11K" :engineOnSound string "&propon2.11K" :engineOffSound string "&prp2off.5K" :hudName string "a7.HUD" :ctName string "f.BI" :defaultTypeName0 string "VIS240.SEE" :defaultTypeName1 string "M113.JT" end link to pt file explained http://farc.3synergy.net/misc/PT_layout_6.zip |
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| Author: | Speedy [ Mon May 07, 2012 01:30 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: how to reduce the maneuverability |
;---------------- START OF PLANE_TYPE ---------------- dword $52 ptr env word -2 word 6 word 514 word 530 word -73 word 0 word 51 word 51 word -146 word 146 word 7 word 7 word -146 word 146 word 73 word 73 word -180 <--- I don't have FA on my computer right now, but this should be the right place, -180 refers to bank left word 180 <--- and 180 refers to bank right word 286 <--- the PT_layout file lists this as Pull Up or Down Rate, but I *think* it's actually rate of roll. word 571 <--- and this is the roll deceleration speed i.e. the 180 above should refer to max roll speed, but 286 refers to how fast the aircraft actually starts rolling, and 571 is how long it takes to slow down. So for example, if you set it to -360//360//80//80, you'd have an aircraft that rolls like a brick initially, but will eventually barrel roll around ridiculously fast. Let me know if I'm wrong, but I'm fairly certain this is how it works (from memory) ------ If you're talking about simply outturning the Raptor, then that's an issue of turn radius and not roll rate, and it's a lot more flight model work, like the stuff Kaptor was talking about. Chances are though, the flight envelope for the aircraft has it capable of pulling Gs at a much lower speed than the Raptor can (though this seems unlikely as the stock Raptor has ridiculous low speed maneuverability), and that's why it has such a tight turn radius, despite pulling few Gs. You're in a prop plane so your effective speed is much lower - I don't have the Raptor's FM with me, but I'm not certain it's capable of pulling 5 Gs at 300 kts, which a prop plane certainly can fairly easily. |
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| Author: | Ali [ Mon May 07, 2012 16:23 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: how to reduce the maneuverability |
hmm this is one from a b-52: ;---------------- START OF PLANE_TYPE ---------------- dword $15 ptr env word -2 word 3 word 651 word 904 word -73 word 0 word 73 word 73 word -146 word 146 word 7 word 7 word -146 word 146 word 73 word 73 word -30 <-- pretty small value word 30 word 21 word 42 are you sure its not the opposite considering that this is actually the roll speed, smaller number means less manuverability and this is one from a raptor ;---------------- START OF PLANE_TYPE ---------------- dword $91 ptr env word -4 word 9 word 1899 word 2219 word -73 word 0 word 73 word 73 word -146 word 146 word 7 word 7 word -146 word 146 word 73 word 73 word -360 word 360 word 526 word 1352 im thinking of using values word -105 word 105 word 106 word 212 edit: ok these values dont seem to be making much difference. the aircraft has crazy rate of turn at only 2.6g. it is certainly harder to do a barrel roll as yaw is slow now but it still pulls hard when you turn. |
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| Author: | Speedy [ Mon May 07, 2012 21:05 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: how to reduce the maneuverability |
Ali wrote: hmm this is one from a b-52: ;---------------- START OF PLANE_TYPE ---------------- dword $15 ptr env word -2 word 3 word 651 word 904 word -73 word 0 word 73 word 73 word -146 word 146 word 7 word 7 word -146 word 146 word 73 word 73 word -30 <-- pretty small value word 30 word 21 word 42 are you sure its not the opposite considering that this is actually the roll speed, smaller number means less manuverability and this is one from a raptor ;---------------- START OF PLANE_TYPE ---------------- dword $91 ptr env word -4 word 9 word 1899 word 2219 word -73 word 0 word 73 word 73 word -146 word 146 word 7 word 7 word -146 word 146 word 73 word 73 word -360 word 360 word 526 word 1352 im thinking of using values word -105 word 105 word 106 word 212 edit: ok these values dont seem to be making much difference. the aircraft has crazy rate of turn at only 2.6g. it is certainly harder to do a barrel roll as yaw is slow now but it still pulls hard when you turn. Yeah, now I'm fairly certain of what it means. When I said "rolls like a brick" it was kind of relative to how fast it *could* go eventually, but of course 80 is still a lot faster than the B-52's 30. These numbers here are only referring to top roll rate, and rate of roll acceleration and deceleration. The B-52's roll rate is 30, it accelerates into the roll at 21, and decelerates at 42. For the Raptor, the roll rate is 360, it accelerates into the roll at 526 (so it instantly reaches max), and decelerates at 1352. CAG did something interesting with this in the Futures LIB if I remember correctly, with a damaged A-10 only able to roll effectively towards one side and not the other. The most noticeable difference is when you have a roll rate higher than acceleration. For example, suppose you set something to word -270 word 270 word 120 word 120 You'll have an aircraft that doesn't seem to respond nearly as quickly to your input, in that it doesn't roll that quickly initially, but eventually will be spinning fast. I personally always do this for my aircraft, because it feels a lot more like planes from other sims. Regarding how hard you can pull, that's Flight Model, and you can't really edit it here. Technically you *can*, but the Flight Model is a lot easier to change through the FATK. |
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| Author: | KAPTOR [ Tue May 08, 2012 01:42 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: how to reduce the maneuverability |
FYI a B-52 would have a roll rate accel far higher than a decel due to it's lack of ailerons. You can get it started but it can be damn hard to stop. |
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| Author: | Speedy [ Tue May 08, 2012 01:58 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: how to reduce the maneuverability |
KAPTOR wrote: FYI a B-52 would have a roll rate accel far higher than a decel due to it's lack of ailerons. You can get it started but it can be damn hard to stop. (in which case you'd have the deceleration set way lower than the 42 it's set at by default) |
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| Author: | Ali [ Sat May 12, 2012 00:51 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: how to reduce the maneuverability |
ok thanks i think i get the hang of it now. it looks like the envelope parameters are more important than anything else here, need to get working on that. |
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| Author: | CAG Hotshot [ Sat May 12, 2012 00:53 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: how to reduce the maneuverability |
Wish I could be of help to you Ali... But PT editing isnt my strong point. Have you looked at the improved (more detailed description) PT file I posted a while back on the FAF Forums? http://vnfawing.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=719 Your membership is active there so if you need me to reset your password let me know... |
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| Author: | Ali [ Thu May 17, 2012 22:35 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: how to reduce the maneuverability |
thanks a bunch cag. yes i forgot my password lol so i cant access the file. |
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| Author: | Ali [ Wed May 23, 2012 17:17 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: how to reduce the maneuverability |
ok fresh problems. i can no longer add any vehicles to FA. doesnt matter in which lib or project, as soon as i create a new vehicle the game crashes. anyone experienced this? |
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