Zephyr Net

I need to revisit the Hit Modifiers.

I'm trying to build an SA-21 site modeling all of the various missiles.
I've also worked up the new SA-22.

Putting aside that the SA-22 gets teabagged on the regular in real life, the SA-22 that I made is devastating. You just cannot get away from its missiles no matter what you do.
The hit modifiers above are from that SA-22.

I need to relearn what each one does and what that means for the missile.
Case & point, I had 56 missiles launched at me from the SA-21 and I dodged every single one of them at 20,000 feet in an F-16 (dumped my stores) through a combination of maneuvering, ECM, and chaff. Not one of them touched me. The SA-22? Almost every one of them hit me no matter what I did.

Anyone have any info somewhere before I go into the bowels of forum searching?
(Which apparently I have to delay anyway because forum errors)


This is for the most maneuverable of the missiles and I know it's not speed or turn rates because the turn rates are much higher for this guy than the SA-22.
I really think it's in these modifiers.

_________________
Centurian

When you answer your own damn question in the oddest of ways!!!

I think I know the issue.



Help file from the Toolkit.

That being said do we have anything anywhere with some more detailed info on these Hit Modifiers?

_________________
Centurian

I have made some very realistic SA-2s, 3s, and 6s using these modifiers ... Allows you to out maneuver them and depending on the missile allows you to fool it with chaff or ECM... But for the 6s you truly have to keep your energy up or they will kill you in the end...

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Yeah I wish I understood the impact of the other ones on missiles.
It would be really nice to make some realistic SAMs.

_________________
Centurian

My problem is that if you are at a high altitude the SAM flies a corkscrew towards you as it climbs which is very unrealeastic. I had to dump several variants of SAMs because of that issue and start from scratch...

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I have not seen that yet but I'll keep an eye out - my biggest issue are the SAMs that make millions of turns because the vertical launch requires 180/180 on the FOVs.
Need to find a solution for that one.

_________________
Centurian

Vertically launched SAMs should come down on your from above... There should be minimal turns...

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They should and I have cruise settings out but when they miss they'll start making turns in the game.
I think this is because their FOV on the seeker is 180/180.

I wonder if I should set the search to 180/180 but tracking to much lower.
I'll have to experiment. After I got them working I sort of counted my stars I got them working.

_________________
Centurian

Briefly coming back to this but specifically the hit percentages.

We've got 0, 25, 50, and 100.

For AAMs, we'd see the lowest hit % at 100% of range with the highest at 25% or 0% do we think?
The reason I would think of 25% is because the missile will have had some time to maneuver and doesn't necessary need to come out of the gate pulling Max G.
Could be wrong though? Not sure what others think?

For an AGM, I should think that the rate would steadily increase from 100% but it doesn't need to be as low as an AAM at 100% because it isn't chasing a maneuvering target.
Would the 0% & 25% apply here we think as with an AAM?

For a Cruise Missile, pretty simply, probably flat across the board 25 to 100.
Maybe the same deal on 0%?

Bombs I guess would steadily increase from 100% to 0% with the highest being at 0%
Same for guns & rockets.

Thoughts?

_________________
Centurian

Its not that simple... It depends on may factors. They type of weapon. The angle to an airborne target, whether its nose is hot or cold or if its fly a crossing direction to your own and what G the target is at.

And for FA it depends on when you want the AI to fire the weapon... If you wait to 100% for the closest range then the AI will not fire that weapon until they reach that close in range, defeating the purpose of a long range missile...

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Thus the conundrum continues!!!!
Gah, this is where it's killing me.
Do I do what's realistic or what we want AI to do.
Or just say screw it and a flat even % across the board.

I'd be curious to see how others approached the problem?

_________________
Centurian

My 2 cents: Do not get so hung up on "realism" that it paralyzes you.

You ever watch the movie Last Action Hero? When Arnold Schwarzenegger's character gets shot in the real world, it about kills him. But, when the kid sends Arnold back to the movie world, the bullet wound is now merely a scratch.

Don't let the "realism" bug kill your project. Stay in the Fighters Anthology world. Manipulate to simulate.

If I made the Vietnam missions "realistic", they wouldn't be any fun. Imagine being the thirtieth pilot to roll in on a bombed-out target. Or if 24 planes were flying TarCAP instead of just 4. What would the players chances be of ever getting to dogfight? How fun would it be to fly?

I hope this helps.

Fantastic movie but yeah the realism bug is messing with me mainly because - from the get-go - that was the focus of "Game Remod."
Make it a little more realistic + fix all of those glaring errors that the default FA had.

Still, I want to make it a little more challenging and I think this is part of it.

_________________
Centurian

Okay I just did a round of testing.

Test #1 - What does "G" miss threshold mean really?
> So I set a missile to 5 there, ran up the turn rates to 120, seeker to 180/90, 0% on deception modifiers, no penalities

Results
> Pulled < 5G, missile hit every time
> pulled 5<=, missile missed every time

Test #2A - How do hit % matter?
> Set them all to 1% and made the missile supermaneuverable, amazing seeker, just like above

Results
> Missed every time no matter what

Test #2B - Same as above
> Set 0% to 100% and everything else to 1%

Results
> Missiles fired at 1% missed every time
> Missiles fired closer to 0% of range hit brutally (e.g. I hit an F-22A at my 6 o'clock while firing at +5G at near point blank range)

Test #3 - How does AI work with hit %
> We know the AI will wait until the best % to fire but then what, does the AI fly away to get some range?
> Set the percentages to 25, 40, 80, 25

Results
> AI engaged around 8 - 10 nm (around where 80% was)
> AI continued to engage even in a dogfight where % was much lower

So push comes to shove I think what I'm going to do is a multifaceted approach.

1. Missiles that I want to fire at longer range (e.g. AIM-120, Meteor), I am going to put the maximum % at 50% of range and carry that over to 25% with the same value so that AI can engage where 'realistically' they would engage
2. Missiles that I want to fire at shorter range (e.g. AIM-9, AA-11), I am going to do the same presuming that the missile has a shorter range but if it has a longer range (e.g. AIM-132) then I'm going to put the maximum % at the 25% mark to 'force' the dogfight
3. AGM missiles will be flat across the board
4. Rockets will be flat from 50% to 0%
5. Guns will increase from 50% to 0% maybe 33, 67, 100

Thoughts? Comments? Cent you're a fricking idiot?

_________________
Centurian

These modifiers are mostly for ground to air missiles (SAMs). Not Air to Air... And you have to have all the modifiers properly set to make the missile perform like you want it to... Plus the only SAM I know of that cant pull more than 5Gs is the SA-5... Perhaps the Nike Hercules... The rest can pull a crap load of Gs...

Air to Air missiles have other more limiting issues such as smaller seeker heads and more limited G capabilities like the AIM-9B and AIM-9D of Vietnam. They could not have a target pull more than 4Gs without losing lock. The Sparrow wasnt much better.

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FAF/FA-2 Design team
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