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 Post subject: Re: re: Pheonix
PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2003 13:16 pm 
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Zephyr wrote:
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The AA-9 is the best evidence and cannot be discounted, the very best evidence that Russia got stuff from Iran. They did not have long-range missile capability in that form until Iran got F-14s and until the revolution when Iran was no longer an allie.


Not at all. Iran was never an ally of the USSR, and there is no evidence of any defections to Russia by Iranians. The development of the R-33 began when the Iranians were just receiving Tomcats, and the R-33 differs signficantly from the Pheonix (one way being that it has shorter range). The R-33 is not a watershed development in long range missile capabilities- compared to the R-40 Acrid the R-33 is simply the next step. The fact that they look "similar in form" means nothing- look how many other Russian missiles that predate the R-33 look similar to the Pheonix. But the burden of proof is not on my shoulders- show me one scrap of evidence, other than "visual similarities", that the Russians recieved a defecting Tomcat or a Pheonix. Interestingly, the Russians deny having recieved those two, while they gloat about all of their other spying and technology exploitation.

Zephyr


Well the Ruskies don't exactly have a clean rep. Half the planes they ever had in their Airforce were rip offs of American designs (Su-25/A-9, Su-24/F-111, MiG-23/F-111, Tu-160/B-1, Il-76/C-141, An-12/C-130, Yak-44/E-2, An-124/C-5, etc.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2003 15:05 pm 
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I think the outward concept of Amos was a copy of what the F-14/Phoenix were doing, a long range missle with conformal carriage. A missle like that would need a large diameter body for the longer range RADAR antennae in the nose and smaller wings to fit up against the fusalage for lower drag like F-14. Soviet missles like Ash and Anab got progressivly longer ranges. 35 and 50 miles according to my stuff, Amos just improved on that. Amos is larger in every dimention than Phoenix, I dont think is is an example of reverse enginering, they did that with our Sidewinder a long time ago, but most of thier missles since then dont show much western influence.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2003 15:42 pm 
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AA-9s are strictly SARH...

AIM-54C is midcourse datalink to terminal ARH

AIM-54A is midcourse high return SARH with ARH terminal guidance.

Does the AA-9 follow a 'lofted' flight trajectory?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Dec 14, 2003 23:24 pm 
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Somewhere on the net, cant be arsed to look for it right now, there are pictures of an F-14 (iirc, with red star and Sov.-style tactical number) flying in formation with an (iirc) MiG-29...


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 Post subject: Re: re: Pheonix
PostPosted: Sun Dec 14, 2003 23:50 pm 
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Zephyr wrote:
Quote:
The AA-9 is the best evidence and cannot be discounted, the very best evidence that Russia got stuff from Iran. They did not have long-range missile capability in that form until Iran got F-14s and until the revolution when Iran was no longer an allie.


Not at all. Iran was never an ally of the USSR, and there is no evidence of any defections to Russia by Iranians. The development of the R-33 began when the Iranians were just receiving Tomcats, and the R-33 differs signficantly from the Pheonix (one way being that it has shorter range). The R-33 is not a watershed development in long range missile capabilities- compared to the R-40 Acrid the R-33 is simply the next step. The fact that they look "similar in form" means nothing- look how many other Russian missiles that predate the R-33 look similar to the Pheonix. But the burden of proof is not on my shoulders- show me one scrap of evidence, other than "visual similarities", that the Russians recieved a defecting Tomcat or a Pheonix. Interestingly, the Russians deny having recieved those two, while they gloat about all of their other spying and technology exploitation.

Zephyr


Ahh but the enemy of my enemy is my friend.

And NVA those pictures are a hoax.

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 Post subject: Re: re: Pheonix
PostPosted: Mon Dec 15, 2003 11:14 am 
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Centurian57_369th wrote:
And NVA those pictures are a hoax.


*shrugs*

I'm too busy laughing at the picture of Saddam with tongue depressor in his mouth to worry about the F-14...


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 15, 2003 13:11 pm 
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Yeah that's a good one.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Dec 29, 2003 20:54 pm 
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Actually those photos may not be a haox, thy may just be misrepresented... There are indeed F-14s flying today with Soviet markings and serial numbers in Soviet Flanker cammoflauge. They are used to represent threat aircraft at both NAS Fallon and Red Flag, Nellis. They have been in combat with US piloted MiG-29s both acting as aggressors against a mixed Blue force. Also these same Tomcats have flown against the German MiG-29s when the Germans flew in support of Blue strikes...

However, no F-14s have ever been in the hands of Russian pilots or in Russian service...

Again I ask, does the AA-9 use a 'lofted' flight trajectory?

CAG out...


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Dec 29, 2003 22:49 pm 
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CAG Hotshot wrote:
Actually those photos may not be a haox, thy may just be misrepresented... There are indeed F-14s flying today with Soviet markings and serial numbers in Soviet Flanker cammoflauge. They are used to represent threat aircraft at both NAS Fallon and Red Flag, Nellis. They have been in combat with US piloted MiG-29s both acting as aggressors against a mixed Blue force. Also these same Tomcats have flown against the German MiG-29s when the Germans flew in support of Blue strikes...

However, no F-14s have ever been in the hands of Russian pilots or in Russian service...

Again I ask, does the AA-9 use a 'lofted' flight trajectory?

CAG out...


Hoax in the sense that they are NOT Russian controlled. While they could be aggressor aircraft no F-14s got into Ruskie hands that I know of either.

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 Post subject: re: Lofted Trajectory
PostPosted: Mon Dec 29, 2003 23:56 pm 
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Again I ask, does the AA-9 use a 'lofted' flight trajectory?


I've never seen this answered. In fact, the only time that I've explicitly heard the extended range Alamos are lofted was IIRC a passing comment at ACIG.org.

Zephyr


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2003 13:38 pm 
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Yes I agree Zephyr... I have also never seen a vid clip of the missiles tested... unlike the AIM-54 public tests...

Has there ever been a confirmed kill by this missile on any aircraft?


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 Post subject: re: Amos
PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2003 16:00 pm 
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The MiG-31/AA-9 have never been used in combat, but I'm sure in tests it's hit stuff. There was the "famous" test where it downed a cruise missile target in the early 80s, which a US satellite reportedly recorded.

Zephyr


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