Zephyr Net

Hi All:

I'm in the middle of Ken Bell's excellent "100 Missions North," a book about his days flying F-105s out of Takhli over North Vietnam. In his account of a strike against a target along the NE railroad to China near Kep on 21 Jan. 1967, Bell reports encountering a pair of MiG-19s with Chinese or North Vietnamese markings. The MiGs made one head-on pass on Bell and his wingman, then made like hell for Kep.

Now, all the sources I've seen indicate that the PRC did not start supplying Chinese-manufactured MiG-19s (aka the J-6) until late 1969 or 1970. The NVN did form one squadron of MiG-19s/J-6s, and these saw action during the Linebacker I campaign. But Bell's report puts MiG-19s (possibly flown by PRC pilots) over NVN in early 1967.

Anyone else know of other reports of MiG-19s being flown by the Chinese or North Vietnamese in 1967?

Thanks,

Eric L. Howes

Have you checked the key publishing aviation forums?

http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/forumd ... dd5b7b&f=5

_________________
Hotshot
"FAF Shape Meister"
FAF/FA-2 Design team
TSH Member/Developer
VNFAWING.com Forum Administrator

VNFAWING Forums
VNFAWING Website

FA Futures/FA-2 is Still Being Worked On and Will Be Released...

CAG:

Nope, haven't checked there, but that's a good suggestion.

Thanks,

Eric L. Howes

You should also try the ACIG.org Site and forums...

http://www.s188567700.online.de/forum/

_________________
Hotshot
"FAF Shape Meister"
FAF/FA-2 Design team
TSH Member/Developer
VNFAWING.com Forum Administrator

VNFAWING Forums
VNFAWING Website

FA Futures/FA-2 is Still Being Worked On and Will Be Released...

Hi:

To answer my own question, there are other reports of MiG-19s over North Vietnam in 1967 -- Chinese MiG-19s.

1. 13 August 1967

F-4Bs covering an Alpha Strike by the Constellation's air wing against targets near Lang Son (just miles from the Chinese border) were engaged by Chinese MiG-19s, which fired several Atolls. No losses on either side occurred, and the F-4Bs elected to return to the Constellation due to low fuel state rather than pursue the MiGs.

2. 21 August 1967

Two A-6A Intruders allegedly wandered across the border while egressing from a strike against a target near Hanoi. Both were shot down by Chinese MiG-19s. The lone surviving Intruder crew member claimed (after his release by the Chinese several years later) that he had been shot down inside North Vietnam and later taken to China.

These incidents are just two of a larger number of engagements between Chinese and American aircraft during the war. USN F-4Bs shot down at least one Chinese MiG-17 on 9 April 1965 off Hainan Island (the victorious F-4B was subsequently shot down by another F-4B with an AIM-7). Chinese MiGs downed several U.S. recon drones over the years and one or two Skyraiders. And on 12 May 1966 a USAF F-105 shot down a MiG-17 over Chinese territory. The Thud pilot claimed he had pursued a VPAF Fresco across the border; the Chinese insisted the downed aircraft was a Chinese Fresco on a training flight.

Eric L. Howes

I have heard that the Chinese hoped to create a sort of buffer zone over North Vietnam along the border. In other words their policy was to scramble interceptors to intercept US aircraft that were within some specified distance of the border, albeit still over Vietnam. A very aggressive way of indicating they wanted no US aircraft over Chinese territory. The August 13, 1967 engagement you list fits this profile. Has anyone else read about this?

Zephyr:

The Johnson Administration itself imposed a 25-30 mile wide Buffer Zone along the NV/PRC border in mid-1965 in order to minimize the risk of further incidents such as the April 9th engagement, which Johnson feared might provoke the Chinese to intervene more directly (as they did in Korea). U.S. aircraft needed explicit authorization from the White House to bomb inside or even overfly this Buffer Zone. U.S. ABCC aircraft actually monitored the Zone and watched for intrusions by U.S. planes, leading some pilots to turn off their IFF transponders so as not to be caught overflying that restricted space.

After a minor few incidents and warnings from the Chinese during May/June 1972 at the start of Operation Linebacker, the Nixon Administration re-imposed the Buffer Zone so as not to squander the progress made on the diplomatic front (e.g., Nixon's visit to China in Feb. '72) to keep the Chinese out of the war.

Based on the Aug. 13th, 1967 engagement (which I only recently read about), I'm leaning towards the conclusion that Ken Bell's Jan. 1967 sighting was a similar situation -- though Kep airfield is quite a ways south of the border, unlike Lang Son.

Eric Howes

If China had tried to intervene it is more likely they would have been fired upon by the North Vietnamese instead of US Forces, as the Vietnamese hated the Chinese more then us by a long shot. And considering how badly the Chinese did against the NVA in the small war during the 1970s, it is doubtful they would have had much of an impact...

_________________
Hotshot
"FAF Shape Meister"
FAF/FA-2 Design team
TSH Member/Developer
VNFAWING.com Forum Administrator

VNFAWING Forums
VNFAWING Website

FA Futures/FA-2 is Still Being Worked On and Will Be Released...