Zephyr Net

Sure, and exactly what kind of air defneses existed in Iraq? How many aircraft were downed? B-52s were used for crusie missile carriers until all possible coordinated airdefenses were destroyed.

Do you honestly think the BUFF could survive in a hostile environment as a penetrator?

How much combat experience, or even air tactics training have you all had? Please tell me, arm chair experts!

So with yourl logic- every B-52 that flew over Vietnam was shot down? Cause they had MiG 17s, 19s, and 21s and sophisticated SAM and AAA systems.

I'd call Vietnam a "high threat enviornment" and the B-52s pounded the bastards.

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allah no longer exists, for I have killed him. You must worship me instead.

In Nam if I am not mistaken, the 52 flew high in close pact formations of 4 or so to be covered by the electronic jammers(EJ) (the best of time) along side heavy aircover and suppersion aircraft to cover their asses. They were most vonerble when making turnes as the EJ would be weakend as aircraft were forced to break the close formations, leaving gaps in EJ shield. That is what I know about the 52 opperations in Nam.

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August 2nd 2003
The 110th Anniversary of Yugolsaivan Aviation!
St. Elias the gardian of the Fighter pilot.

So? they still got the job done, and even in a modern enviornment over a hostile area- they'd still have those jammer escorts. So what you're saying doesn't prove anything.

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allah no longer exists, for I have killed him. You must worship me instead.

Yes they did get their job done, but quite a few were lost, frankly one heavy "modern" bomber lost is too many. Well the thing is that as a first strike or penerator the 52 would be failure back then and now. They could get the job done but at a unbelible cost. They need a large amount of protection to do what they do. If a 52's go up alone over enemy air space they are prob history.
On the side not a large number of the SA-2's fired in Linbaker raids that struck were actualy unguided. just a huge UR.

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August 2nd 2003
The 110th Anniversary of Yugolsaivan Aviation!
St. Elias the gardian of the Fighter pilot.

Big, just in case you have not figured things out...

The Vietnam War ended for the US 30 years ago...

ANd even then 13 B-52s were destroyed by SA-2s with many more damaged, just in Linebacker II...

There is no doubt the BUFF is awesome, but its days as a penetration bomber are long over. The F-111 was still viable when Clinton retired them, against the wishes of the USAF and the judgement of the joint chiefs of staff that declared the airframes still have 20 additional years of life in them as a day 1 penetrator...

Well in reality 52's days as a penetrator were prob over even before Nam. they were outmached by the sams that came into the use in the late 50's early 60's, not to mention the interceptors.

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August 2nd 2003
The 110th Anniversary of Yugolsaivan Aviation!
St. Elias the gardian of the Fighter pilot.

interceptors? Big deal.....B-17s and 29s faced interceptors as well, yet they were still the 2 greatest bomber of WW2. A suitable escort of jammer and fighter aircraft offsets the enemys SAM and interceptors anyway.....

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allah no longer exists, for I have killed him. You must worship me instead.

B-24 was better than the B-17 in everyrespect that I'm aware of, but the 29 was king

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Fighting for justice with brains of steel

Let your anger be like the monkey which hides inside the piniata.

What jammer assets do you believe we have Big? The only standoff jammers are USN/USMC EA-6B Prowlers and there are damn few of them. How many does it take to penetrate modern defenses? How effective are they against the SA-10 and the SA-12? What about medium ranged defenses like the SA-17? How about Shorads?

How can you project enough of a jam spike to cover a flight of B-52s, when their jamming gear is much more effective then the 'Queers' but even that does not stand a chance against a system taht is capable of shooting a HARM missile fired at it out of the sky? What about A-50 AWACs and its effectiveness in seeing the HUGE radar picture of a BUFF?

What about SU-27 level aircraft 'showering' the strike force with AA-12 missiles? How about the extended range AA-10 Alamo with the improved all aspect ARH seeker? What about the HOJ capabilites of both missiles to blot the jammers from the sky? How about the suppossed new passive seeking SAM, that uses both IR and passive radar homing to strike at 100 miles and you do not even know it has been shot at you..

Big, you just have no understanding of what the modern airbattle really is all about. It isnt fixed SA-2 or SA-5 sites lobbing SARH SAMs into the air and hoping for a hit.

You simply can not expect a B-52 to stand up to this type of combat. THus it carries nothing but CALCMs on the first days of the war and let them do the penetrating..

However the F-111 with it highspeed and tercom would easily have stood a better chance of survival then the BUFF in teh same mission...

The Su-27 / Adder threat would be offset by fighter escort and AMRAAMs.

And even with all the sophisticated SAM systems and the like, what are the odd that every bomber flown over the target area will be shot down?

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allah no longer exists, for I have killed him. You must worship me instead.

BiG about the B-17's and 29's, they flew in a time when only guns existed. They had multiple guns for deffence and flew with escorts as much as possilbe. The 52 would not fair well as CAG said in modern combat, it would fair that well even with escorts. The techonlogy has progressed much and the 52 makes for a huge target. Your best bet is a low flying transonic or or in some cases supersonic strike fighter. Such as: Jaguar, Tornado, Su-25, F-111 (not any more, F-15E (MAYBE), Su-24/32 (MAYBE), Orao ect. to make the first suprize stirke. The Jag, Su-25 and Orao maybe the best bet as they can take of roads and unpaved or smaller airstips away from their main bases, that would make them capable of excaping destruction if main bases were to be hit. The best thing would be a small realtivly fast (around speed of sound) plane that can fly realy low below the radars detection, something that USAF seems to lack in some respects.

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August 2nd 2003
The 110th Anniversary of Yugolsaivan Aviation!
St. Elias the gardian of the Fighter pilot.

Well I wouldnt say the USAF lacks the capability BT... The B-1B can take on this mission, fast on the deck with a HUGE warload.. But it is a strategic asset and I doubt even they would be used as a 1st day penetrator. Which leaves the USAF with the F-15E, F-16C, and the F-117 as current 1st day penetrators. Pathetic!

Hopefully the F/A-22 and the JSF will chage this as neither will have to fly in the weeds to hide in the ground clutter.. THus the swing wing effects of the Vark will not be needed... Plus supercrusing with the Raptor supersonically means you get there fast with a much reduced IR signature...

I am not trying to make USAF seem stupid or anything but the fact seems that they have never grasped the concept or at least adopted it. The concept is a smaller jet with a lighter warload that can take of road and unpaved stips and relativly fast, ie Jag, Su-25, Orao. They are excelent for deployment in the countyside in pairs or alone to stirke first and destroy forward possions and penerate. There is the Harrier, they can be used in such a situation but would prob need more eqipment to operate due to their complex engines. On the side note, the Swedish graped that concept to its fullest, they have stike, attack and fighters that cna take of small roads. go Swedes, Dam you got ot love Saab.

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August 2nd 2003
The 110th Anniversary of Yugolsaivan Aviation!
St. Elias the gardian of the Fighter pilot.

OK Big there is even another way to look at this... There are very few remaining BUFFs in the inventory, just the Hs, which means about what? 94? They can each carry 51 Mk-82 bombs, while the F-111F could carry 48 of these weapons. Big we retired 446 F-111s! Do you have any idea what kind of firepower that was we lost? We have nothing to replace it!

(The Air Force is considering withdrawal of 18 of the 94 currently in service. However, there is Congressional opposition to this idea, and there is also a proposal to use the B-52H as a "stand-off jammer" designated the "EB-52H" to compensate for a current shortfall in ECM capabilities. The B-52H would be loaded up with high-power countermeasures gear to stand outside a battle area and blind adversary radars.)