Zephyr Net

I never said that the decision to withdraw the F-111 was a good idea, not once- the F-111 was and is one of my favorite USAF birds of all time. I just think that with modern day cruise missiles, A-10s and smart bombs that the role of the F-111 has greatly diminished.

Take a look at the effectiveness of the above 3 weapons systems in the 2 Gulf Wars and the beat down they layed on Saddam.

However the F-16 comes short of the wild weasel standards set by the F-4G IMO, we never should have taken the F-4 out so early.

Both moves were retarded, and typical of liberals who ONLY care about big welfare programs and further buracracys with higher taxes.

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allah no longer exists, for I have killed him. You must worship me instead.

F-4G had 4 ALE-40s and the F-16 doesn't exactly have that many chaff and flare dispeners. It also doesn't have the ECM the F-4 had but I think it surely exceeds the F-4G. It can carry the same ordinance but it can also carry AIM-120s.

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"May the PATRIOTS down the FROGS!"
1Lt. Centurian57_76/369th

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neg, they had a serious lacking in the gun armament department. According to various B-17 tail gunners- the B-24 was the Lutwaffe's primary target in intercepts due to this, they'd even break off attacks on B-17s to go after B-24s.

This is something I saw on the History Channel once, about bomber crews. (They had various interviews)

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allah no longer exists, for I have killed him. You must worship me instead.

The B-17 is surpassed by no WWII bomber other than the B-29. If you look at how well they took battle damage, still got to their target, and still got home you'd vote it the greatest bomber in History. Please BOEING is the king of bombers I must say and the B-17 is their greatest achievement (sorry B-52 fans but that sucker was a KING).

_________________
"Smile, AMRAAMs love you!"
"May the PATRIOTS down the FROGS!"
1Lt. Centurian57_76/369th

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Thought I'd get a comment in on this...

The F-111 looks way sicker, with those AFT lit up? OH MY lol let's just be glad the question wasn't who was the better sprinter (no one use my metaphor and bring up endurance races to back the 52s fuel capacity please) Catch ya later.

Jimbo

That F-111 sure can hold a lot of fuel...5000+ gallons to around 33000 lb. and change or 32, whichever of fuel in that little body...enough to get her to the target at low level supersonic the whole way, drop her payload (which is more than most Soviet bombers of the time) and RTB safely.

_________________
"Smile, AMRAAMs love you!"
"May the PATRIOTS down the FROGS!"
1Lt. Centurian57_76/369th

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Big,

Back to quoting what you 'heard on TV on the History Channel' again?

That channel is infamous at screwing up on stats for just about everything it covers. The B-24 Liberator had a definate ADVANTAGE in firepower over the B-17 D,E,and F and parity with the B-17G(final model with 'chin turret'), as the Liberator had a powered twin 50 nose turret to defeat the head on tactics employed against Fortresses, plus the same top turret and ball turret and waist gunners.. It also had a powered turret in the tail, a definate advantage when engaging crossing targets, which the B-17's tail gunner could not do.

The Liberator had longer range and double the payload due to its laminar flow wings. It had a different vulnerabiltiy though relating to its range. Liberators burned easy if hit in the bombay fuel tanks. However this was overcome by self sealing tanks employed early in the war and emergency jettison of those tanks if they caught fire. The Liberator also had a height advantage over the B-17, as its max altitude was 4000 ft higher, however it still suffered from lack of internal pressurazition of the might B-29 Superfortress...

Now Big, please dont go back to quoting the TV, I thought we had shown you the fallacy of doing that...

Got a quick set of questions for you Big in relation to how effective the F-16CJ vs the F-4G and the A-10 vs the F-111 in tank killing...

How many Aircraft were downed by fixed SAM sites in Kosovo, Enduring Freedom, and Iraqi Freedom? How many in Desert Storm?

How many A-10s were downed killing Tanks in Iraqi Freedom and Desert Storm and how many F-111s were downed 'plinking tanks' in Desert Storm?

Also, just to complicate things for your life (heh!)...

Did you know the USAF was planning on retiring all A-10s quite soon? You can rad about ti on Warthog Territory, and ask Kap...


Answer to number 1 is.. 3 (2 over Kosovo and 1 over Iraq from fixed fortification SAM Sites, which the F-4G was designed to engage and destroy. Over 250 SAMs were fired from these sites and all sites were demolished by the CJs... In DS, with the F-4G providing suppression over 30 aircraft were lost to fixed sites...

Answer to number 2 is.. 6 WartHogs were downed and 10 others Damaged in DS and IF engagments against tanks vs 1 F-111F damaged in DS...

So how truly effective was the F-111 in relation to just about nearly every aircraft that is in the USAF current inventory? How many F-15Es have been downed? At least 2 that I know about.. other damaged... No vark losses in conflict since the first losses in Nam due to wing box failure... Not bad for a 30 + year old design...

I think an actual B-17 gunner from WW2 is a more credible source than you are

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allah no longer exists, for I have killed him. You must worship me instead.

Actually I believe the USAF is a more reliable source then he is..

However I will quote General LeMay directly when comparing the two aircraft...

" The B-24 will always be a more effective aircraft then the B-17, we just did not have enough of them to warrant withdrawling the Forts in Europe."

What's about the "Tu-95 Bear" and the "Su-24 Fencer"?

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"We have enough Surface to Air Missiles. Send us Surface to AIRCRAFT missiles!"
(Urgent Arab diplomatic communique to Moscow. Early 1970's)

What about them? Could you please be more specific?

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allah no longer exists, for I have killed him. You must worship me instead.

I'd still rather be an a B-17 man...those things weren't called Flying Fortresses for nothing...

But look at why A-10s went down when engaging tanks and why F-111s didn't. A-10s got down low and were susceptible to AAA and cannon fire from the tanks on their Maverick and strafing runs...F-111s dropped CBUs, GBUs, and maybe shot AGM-65s but got no where as close as those A-10s did...

_________________
"Smile, AMRAAMs love you!"
"May the PATRIOTS down the FROGS!"
1Lt. Centurian57_76/369th

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Yup, got to agree with you there Cent, but doenst that make it a more effective aircraft since it can do the same job while staying out of harms way? If it can do the same mission as the A-10, F-15E, F-16C(in strikes) B-1(in FB-111 format) and the B-52 then the USAF even made a bigger mistake then I first calculated. Retiring an aircrat that still had a good 6k to 10K hours left in the airframe makes no sense at all. It was a Clinton gift to the USAF and to America.. Make us less effective and the bad guys more effective and force us to risk more pilots..

Alot more then were put at risk when deactivating the limted number of F-4Gs..

Ehh but still look at this though...

A-10 has that GAU-8 plus a whole lot more hardpoints and can carry more in quantity than the F-111s 4 hardpoints...while the F-111 can carry more in weight, the A-10 can carry lets say 4 CBUs, 12 AGM-65s, 2 rocket pods, plus still have a pair of AIM-9s and a full 1174 quan gun load...A-10 could prob. kill more tanks than the F-111 on a single sortie...I mean lets say the F-111 has 4 GBUs, thats 4 tanks unless they are packed closely...lets say it has clusters, yeah thats fine and dandy if they are closely packed and such...agm-65s on an f-111 yeah but it can only carry 12 total (3 per pylon) so that right htere is just 4 of the 11 A-10 pylons.

_________________
"Smile, AMRAAMs love you!"
"May the PATRIOTS down the FROGS!"
1Lt. Centurian57_76/369th

For all your FA needs and Game Remod 6 visit