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 Post subject: Hypersonic Missiles
PostPosted: Sat Oct 30, 2021 18:01 pm 
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An open question, Does China have a hypersonic missile or is it misinformation marketing?
I have read the news releases about the Chinese missile and I am questioning if they have a real one.

The Soviets worked on one and abandoned work on it. Ran out of money?

Thoughts?

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 Post subject: Re: Hypersonic Missiles
PostPosted: Sat Oct 30, 2021 22:52 pm 
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Allegedly they both have it, the Avangard for the Russians and whatever this new thing is for the Chinese.
They appear to be real, at least there's no one outright in the US policy circles saying they aren't but to what effect they are capable remains to be seen.
I wonder if they're solely nuclear or if they have "accurate" enough guidance for conventional.
I would hazard to say they are probably more hype than not but they do appear real.
Not going to outright dismiss them personally.

I would say they're probably more of a threat - if real - than the Anti-Carrier Ballistic Missile China touted (that lacks a proper midcourse guidance or over-the-horizon targeting capabilities).

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 Post subject: Re: Hypersonic Missiles
PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2021 23:14 pm 
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The news release said they missed the target by 25 miles!

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 Post subject: Re: Hypersonic Missiles
PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2021 11:33 am 
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Pappy wrote:
The news release said they missed the target by 25 miles!

Best Regards,
Pappy


Ha! Can't even miss by that much with a nuclear warhead and still do good damage unless you got 50 megatons or more.
Definitely chuckle worthy.

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 Post subject: Re: Hypersonic Missiles
PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2021 06:36 am 
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The Hypersonic missiles are real, but are they indeed maneuvering missiles? You see every ICBM and IRBM is a hypersonic missile but it flies a ballistic trajectory... The new Russian Hypersonic missile isn't a ballistic missile though, its a straight in attacker. If flies directly from the parent launcher to the target. It doesn't maneuver to stay safe from defenses, instead relying on its speed to beat those defenses... Which is a good thing for the missile because trying to turn at those speeds would be hell on the missile frame though heat and gravity forces wanting to tear it apart... However the bane of the hypersonic missile is about to enter the US Fleet. That being ship borne and air borne lasers. They will have to be within a certain range to kill a hypersonic due to atmosphere propagation which absorbs and diffuses light energy. But the newest lasers have energy to spare and while the beam will be reduced it will still be highly above that required to hit and overheat a hypersonic missile causing it to self destruct. This is due to the missile already generating tremendous heat and its inability to handle high temps from the laser. And at 186,000 miles per second the laser had a definite speed advantage over a hypersonic (Mach 5 and above) and will only take a few seconds to kill it.

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 Post subject: Re: Hypersonic Missiles
PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2021 18:31 pm 
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Using lasers would definitely be helpful.
Just because of the sheer speed of these and the way they fly you don't need a lot of "warpage" to the airframe to cause air friction heating to exceed design limits.
Probably a lot less than say your average SRBM or TBM like YABL-1 was meant to attack.

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 Post subject: Re: Hypersonic Missiles
PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2021 19:10 pm 
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Centurian57_369th wrote:
Using lasers would definitely be helpful.
Just because of the sheer speed of these and the way they fly you don't need a lot of "warpage" to the airframe to cause air friction heating to exceed design limits.
Probably a lot less than say your average SRBM or TBM like YABL-1 was meant to attack.


Lasers are only truly effective against ballistic missiles in their boost (hit the fuel tanks) and orbital phase (hit the nose cone before it disperses its warheads will make them fail to re-enter), because they cant be hit during warhead re-entry and their heat shield is ablative so its a no go for heating with a laser.

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 Post subject: Re: Hypersonic Missiles
PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2021 23:22 pm 
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Thanks, Cent and CAG!

I could find from the new stories, there was not defense.
But there is, which reduces the threat.

We are working on our own, with missile engines being test now.
Our weapon roll out is late 2022, so there you Chicoms!

Made in America!! :)

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 Post subject: Re: Hypersonic Missiles
PostPosted: Sat Nov 06, 2021 01:06 am 
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That is the main reason they wanted the F-15EX because it can carry a hypersonic missile on its belly and the F-22/F-35 cant.

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 Post subject: Re: Hypersonic Missiles
PostPosted: Sat Nov 06, 2021 09:17 am 
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CAG Hotshot wrote:
Centurian57_369th wrote:
Using lasers would definitely be helpful.
Just because of the sheer speed of these and the way they fly you don't need a lot of "warpage" to the airframe to cause air friction heating to exceed design limits.
Probably a lot less than say your average SRBM or TBM like YABL-1 was meant to attack.


Lasers are only truly effective against ballistic missiles in their boost (hit the fuel tanks) and orbital phase (hit the nose cone before it disperses its warheads will make them fail to re-enter), because they cant be hit during warhead re-entry and their heat shield is ablative so its a no go for heating with a laser.


Yep if I recall the concept on the YABL-1 was to overheat the propellant in the boost stage causing it to explode.
Indeed those heat shields would laugh at a laser considering what they're expected to endure during re-entry.

Pappy wrote:
Thanks, Cent and CAG!

I could find from the new stories, there was not defense.
But there is, which reduces the threat.

We are working on our own, with missile engines being test now.
Our weapon roll out is late 2022, so there you Chicoms!

Made in America!! :)

Best Regards,
Pappy


I think the difference you'll see between the US, Russia, and China (at least my take):
  • Russia's will probably be a lot of "boogeyman" (i.e. scare NATO thinking this is the next "superkiller") material and though capable, reflect the overall Russian defense strategy's aims and goals and be focused on nuclear capabilities (Avangard reportedly has between 800 KT & 2 MT warhead so imagine how poor its CEP is). Though I will say the Kh-47M2 Kinzhal (which really just looks like the Iskander made smaller) could have decent accuracy to make its conventional payload worthwhile but this depends on Russia maintaining its GLONASS system, which unlike GPS has suffered from fits & spurts of neglect. It is completed - at present - but will Russia keep up with it? That remains to be seen. Russia has the money and by all means they have the bargaining chips with Europe & gas supply (good job Europe) but can they keep the money out of the oligarchs' pockets long enough to disperse it where it's needed. Push comes to shove, despite all of the money Russia has been pouring into its military since 2008, they're still suffering from a lot of issues upgrading older systems and not developing newer stuff - just look at how many Su-27s are still in their original configurations and how they go from plane project to plane project making only a wing or two's worth of aircraft before canceling them to go to something new. Them being very export-oriented is going to limit their capabilities since most customers aren't going to pay for or want the capabilities needed to remain on par with NATO.
  • China's will probably be more for propaganda purposes and be aimed towards either scaring off the USN or bombarding Taiwan and more than likely lag behind the three in terms of capabilities. It'll be heavily focused on stolen technologies thanks to their pastime of industrial & commercial espionage but in true fashion, likely suffer from poor construction & materials qualities (reference the WS-10 engines that have life spans of less than 100 hours compared to the AL-31s they based them on and the extreme reliability of GE's engines that blow the AL-31s out of the water).
  • The US will get their last because we'll take longer to develop and we have to deal with the military contractors' overall mentality of jacking up costs to make some extra bucks. Push comes to shove it'll work, it'll probably be the most accurate (hence it will likely have conventional capabilities and thus be more usable in conflicts), and it will begin to usher in a long line of version improvements where you'll see more and more capabilities with each generation - after all just look how the Paveway I in Vietnam led to the Paveway II to the Paveway III to JDAM to these tiny weapons with < 1m CEP.

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 Post subject: Re: Hypersonic Missiles
PostPosted: Sun Nov 07, 2021 02:01 am 
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Russia doesn't pour money into anything. They have no money. Even the natural gas sales are tiny compared to their need. Their economy is now smaller than Canada's.... Yes Canada's! Russian defense budget is less than 65 Billion in US dollars. That is for their entire military needs, including what they are wasting in Syria. They cant even afford to build hypersonic missiles. The small number they do produce will be more than offset by the defense lasers.

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 Post subject: Re: Hypersonic Missiles
PostPosted: Mon Nov 08, 2021 09:38 am 
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It might not be as much as we are but for them they're pouring in money.
Check out the graph here:
https://www.statista.com/statistics/120 ... re-russia/

You can see an uptrend from 1999 but once you hit 2008 you see an even sharper climb.
In 2007 they were at $43.5B by 2013 they were at $88B and now they're in the 60s.
That's a sizeable jump. A lot of the money has been going into infantry forces, procuring more modern body armor and the like.
Georgia didn't go as well as it should have for them, all things considered.
They issued a revamp of their entire army to set about an NCO base like Western nations have.
All things considered, Russia remains poised for major action in Ukraine, it's just a matter of when.
I don't see NATO rushing to defend Ukraine en masse like they would any other nation and Russia knows it, which is why they keep so many forces on the border.
They're hoping Ukraine goes differently than Georgia went.

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 Post subject: Re: Hypersonic Missiles
PostPosted: Fri Nov 26, 2021 05:44 am 
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Russia has NO MONEY. With so small an economy and no end in sight for their sanctions because they wont get out of Ukraine they don't have a prayer. The russians spent what little funding they had on new nuclear weapons. But those are not really made to offset anything the US is deploying. They were built to offset chinese expansion. Russia shares a huge border with the chinese and sooner or later they are going to come looking for resources on that border and what they think they can get away with taking from the russians. Without nuclear weapons in large numbers the russians would never be able to stop the PLA...

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 Post subject: Re: Hypersonic Missiles
PostPosted: Thu Dec 23, 2021 17:57 pm 
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Russia presents Mig-31IK amid war in Eastern Europe

It is in a climate of war that Russia has just announced the official approval of the new variant of the Mig-31 fighter plane (Foxhound) carrying the famous Air-Sol KH-47M2 Khinjal aero-ballistic missile. It will be the Mig-31IK. The Khinjal is an ALBM (Air Launched Ballistic Missile) or hypersonic ballistic missile with a mass of 4 tons that can carry a conventional or tactical nuclear charge at a speed of Mach 10 over more than 2000 kilometers. The Khinjal or dagger is a weapon of formidable precision carried by an equally formidable platform forming one of the six new strategic complexes of the Russian defense.

It is unlikely that this weapon could be used against Ukraine in the event of conflict but could act as a deterrent against NATO forces as it is almost impossible to intercept such missiles on time. current.

From : https://strategika51.org/2021/12/22/la- ... orientale/

See also : https://militarywatchmagazine.com/search/HYPERSONIC%20MISSILES/1/24


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