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 Post subject: True Max Speeds?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 11, 2003 19:00 pm 
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I've posted before that the early F-15s could do much better than the stated Mach 2.5 albeiet with resulting damage ( they had more powerfull engines than the later models ) . I have a little bit of comfirmation on this:

Quote:
We've done some testing with the GE-129's and P&W -229's. Lets just say the F-22 isn't the only aircraft capable of super cruise.

When we did some engine testing and mind you this was on a F-15B model. The top speed listed was 2.55+ with it's true actual top speed classified. This plane was able to do a true "supercruise" just as the F-22. It had to have a special paint job in order to keep the standard paint from being stripped off by the speeds. The plane warped intakes and melted the wind screen. Now that in itself should be an idea of just how fast it was going.......

Supercruise is the abilty to pass through the transonic region without the use of burners. The JTF proposal design request and Raptors are designed to take this to a serviceable 1.6 with stores.

another poster added:


I have a RAAF source, that stated they took a F-111 out on a final flight for a retiring Colonel and they stretched it out to Mach3.2 and singed it some. Along the lines of melted wind screen and warped some other stuff.

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 Post subject: Re: True Max Speeds?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 11, 2003 21:13 pm 
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Well supercruise isn't a new thing but it's relatively unknown which makes it more appealing. The F-104 could supercruise way back when. Now I doubt that the F-15 can do anything less than M3.0. I mean look at it, M2.5 listed ain't nothing near what it can probably do. They say that aircraft can go much slower. The F-15 was built to counter the M3.0 (or M2.8 sustained) speed of the MiG-25. The MiG-25 was built to counter the M3.0 speed of the XB-70 Valkyre. While the MiG-25 could have never caught up to the XB-70 in a chase simply because it would have ran out of fuel given that Russian birds aren't too fuel efficient, it was a potential threat big enough to worry some people. After all it would routinely be intercepted by F-4Es over Israel flying out of Syria and what not and those F-4s would climb and chase them good for a while but once the MiG-25 wanted to get away it would and the F-4Es would be left in the dust. So I bet the F-15 could chase down a MiG-25 in a chase. After all, our stuff is always better :)

The B-1A could do M2.2 unclassified. The B-1B they say can only do M1.2 unclassified. I bet if they opened that sucker up it could exceed M2.0. With the F-22, they say it's going to be the fastest plane in US active service. Now the F-15 holds that at M2.5 but they only list M2.2 for the F-22. I bet it'll be M2.7ish when it's operational and prob. M3.25+. Look at the F-22, a thrust to weight ratio OVER 1:1, barely any drag, man I bet that sucker can roar through the air.

Makes you think, did the SR-71, which was listed at M3.5 exceed M4.0? I mean there wasn't any missiles around that could shoot it down and if that was so, and the AIM-54 was around with it's M5.0 speed then it makes you wonder just how fast these suckers can go.

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 Post subject: Re: True Max Speeds?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 12, 2003 01:26 am 
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I really doubt the F-15 can go Mach 3. If listed speed is Mach 2.5 then I'd say classified is in the neighborhood of 2.7-2.8. I don't know what the stated speed for the SR-71 is but in documentaries and the like pilots say stuff like "unofficially crept up to 3.65". SA-5 Gammon could go Mach 5 but the difficulty in intercepting fast aircraft lies in getting the missile to a position where its internal seeker will be able to pick up the returns off the target. One small turn by the SR-71 and its 100 miles away from where the SA-5 is heading to. And if the missile turns, even a big gradual turn like in this case, it looses alot of energy so gets in a disadvantage. Another thing is its low RCS, so many Soviet systems had only a few seconds to lock it up and fire, which is impossible for humans to react to. Now a Patriot, or if the S-300s or S-400s are automated, maybe they could react. The SA-5 would have had the best chance against the Blackbird but I doubt it ever was in an ideal interception situation. The SR-71 had side looking equipment so it could strafe coastlines, which would make for a terrible intercept. Also all record numbers are usually lower because its average speed over a closed course, which may include refueling like in the SR-71's case, hence its speed is listed alot as Mach 3.2. But for a combat aircraft that carries external stores the maximum speed is drastically lower in practice, so records are kind of a moot point. I'm just a skeptic for some of these "fast run, windshield melting" stories. Of course windshields melt sometimes, but I think a few tenths of a Mach sometimes get added with each retelling. :roll:

Zephyr


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 Post subject: Re: True Max Speeds?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 12, 2003 02:44 am 
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Zeph, I'm as scepticle as anybody, but this guy has flown everything in the world it seems, and he even sent me a "Team Tacticle Tommahawk" shirt a while back when he was working on that, I Do lean towards beliving him to say the leaste. I have some more stuff from him that I can post.

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 Post subject: Re: True Max Speeds?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 12, 2003 03:01 am 
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some more from this guy:

Quote:
The reason for the moving (variable geometry) intakes on aircraft like the F-15, F-14, and F-4 has to do not with AoA, but with speed.

Ahh…..precious speed.

You see, no matter how much thrust a turbine engine produces, it will start to run out of steam as it approaches Mach 1.8 to 1.9. The turbine engine can only use airflow that comes in at a certain velocity or slower. As aircraft go beyond Mach 1.8 to 1.9, the intakes must re-orient themselves to slow down air velocity to useable levels.

So, as an F-15 moves past Mach 1.8, the intakes adjust their ramp angle to slow down air velocity to useable levels. This allows the F-15 to continue through Mach 2.0 al the way to Mach. 2.5

This is the principal that applies to the following aircraft

B-1A (Mach 2.2)
F-15 (Mach 2.5)
F-14 (Mach 2.4),
F-4 (Mach 2.2)
F-111 (Mach 2.2)
SR-71 (Mach 3.4+)
And others from that design era.

Aircraft that have fixed geometry intakes are basically limited in their top speed due to the inability of the intakes to slow down air to useable levels at those speeds.

NOTE:
This is completely independent of thrust to weight ratio F-16 and F-15 have comparable T:W ratios, but the F-15 is WAY faster due to its VG intakes.

Aircraft with fixed intakes include:

B-1B (Mach 1.2+)
F/A-18 (Mach 1.8 )
F/A-18E/F (Mach 1.8 )
F-16 (Mach 1.9+)
F-35 (Mach 1.8 projected)
F/A-22 (Mach 2.0 released)

A major point to note here is that Variable Geometry intakes are no longer included in modern aircraft design. Their movement, by nature, greatly increases the RCS of the aircraft which is not permitted anymore. The F-18, F-16, F-35, and F-22 all have SIGNIFICANTLY lower RCS than the aircraft listed above.

The B-1 program is almost a perfect example of what the VG intake does for speed. The original B-1A called for an aircraft that had a Mach 2.2 dash capability and as such, the GE F101 engines were fitted with complex variable intakes that allowed such speeds. The revised B-1B proposal did not call for that capability, so the variable intakes were replaced with simplified fixed intakes (and RCS screens) that limited the top speed to about Mach 1.2. In both cases, the engine was a 30,000 lb. Thrust GE F101 with few differences so the entire difference between Mach 1.2 and 2.2 was the intake system!

A secondary function of the VG intake is to maintain a smooth flow of air over the compression sections so you will notice movement during BFM, and AoA situations, but those are secondary functions easily solved with a fixed intake of sufficient design.

Make no mistake, their main purpose is max speed, but that’s really no longer necessary in this world. That’s why the VG intake will cease production with the last F-15 that ever rolls off the line…..

The F-15's Variable Ramps are constantly moving except for while they have WOnW. With WonW the ramps are commanded full down by the Air Inlet Controllers or Air Data Processors when the ramp switch is set in the Auto position,hydraulic power is available and cooling airflow is sufficient enough for operation. Which type of computer is controlling the aircraft depends on what modification the aircraft has.

The ramps can also be commanded down by maintainers using the A/B test switches located under doors 6L/6R. There is also a safety cutout switch built into both 10L/10R which working independently of each other. This function is builtin to ensure if someone has 10L/10R open that the first ramp won't crush them under the door if the ramps are commanded down.

Once inflight the ramps will move independently depending on not only speed but AOA. Depending on the speed and how much the ramp has to actually move because of a bank the ramp opposite of the turn will actually adjust up accordingly to allow for sufficient airflow. This is due to the disturbed airflow that is being generated across the nose of the aircraft.

Also yet another thing to note about the F-15's Variable Ramps is that when coming through the 1.4 to 1.5 MACH range the Diffuser ramp and Bypass doors will begin to function. Reason for this is to bleed off the oblique shockwaves that are created at this speed. If the diffuser ramp or bypass door fail to operate properly then a Inlet failure light will illuminate and they aircrew will throttle back.

The First Ramps lip will disipate as much of the shockwave as it can and so will the lower lip of the intake. The diffuser ramp will then bleed off the remaing oblique shockwave as it enters the intake itself. The bypass door is there so the remaining shockwaves that are being bled off by the diffuser ramp will exit at the top the aircraft. Also built-in to the first, second and diffuser ramps is tiny holes to bleed of standing static pressures. This is to keep from getting whats called duct buzz pressures built up in the intake. Excessive static pressures will cause the engines stall or stagnate.

Meanwhile, the PS2 probe that exists on the front of P&W -220 and -229 will monitor the impact pressures and static pressures. If any abnormalities exist between the AIC or ADP's calculations and the DEEC and EDU's calculations then a fault will be tripped and a Engine Control Light and Inlet lights will illuminate.

Though these may seem as very basic it's a critical part of flight for the F-15



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 Post subject: Re: True Max Speeds?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 12, 2003 15:58 pm 
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Variable intakes are specificially designed to limit the airflow allowed into the engine intakes, where it is slowed down to subsonic leves before introduction to the engine.

The faster the jet goes the smaller the inlet will become. Thus it varies in size, which is why it is wide open on take offs...

The fixed inlet is designed to operate within a certain regime of the envelope and as the gentleman above states, doesnt move so as not to alter the aircraft's RCS, thus limiting the TOP END speed of the aircraft...

This is not 'new' or 'amazing' information and has been public ever since the AIrforces decision to drop the variable inlets on the B-1A for fixed inlets on the B-1B...


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 Post subject: Re: True Max Speeds?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2003 02:51 am 
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any idea when the air inside an intake tunnel (nacelle) goes from a vacume state to an overpressure? always wondered at what speeds that starts to happen

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 Post subject: Re: True Max Speeds?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2003 13:09 pm 
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That depends on alot of things there Kap...

Which aircraft, the speed of the aircraft, type of engine, requirements of the engine, power of the engine, again the design of the intakes...

usually at low speed the intake is sucking more air then it takes in and uses auxillary inlets, but once subsonic speed is surpasses then the design of the inlet is to slow the intake of air to subsonic so it is essentially designed to defeat overpressure by allowing the surplus air to bypass the compressor to be mixed again with fuel and injected back into the mix into the chamber prior to the burner cans (high bypass turbofan principle)...


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 Post subject: Re: True Max Speeds?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2003 23:01 pm 
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jeeze I figured it happened well before transonic thanks.

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 Post subject: Re: True Max Speeds?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2003 16:50 pm 
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well, since the air nneds to be subsonic to avoid allowing the supersoinc spike to enter and stall the compressor.... heh... Thus fighters like the F-86, MiG-15 and 17 all had fixed inlets...


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