Zephyr Net

One major problem with your analogy... The Eagle is still superior to all other combat aircraft on the planet, where as the Fishbed is a joke..

And dont forget to ask those pilots about how they feel flying the Fishbed against Chinese SUs...

Hell do ya one better, how did he feal about the MiG-21 vs. F-15's F-16's Mirages, F-18's. Would that satisfy you CAG?

About the Indian migs they are the backbone on the Airfore there are some 10-12 squadrons in service, thats more then most other types combined.

_________________


August 2nd 2003
The 110th Anniversary of Yugolsaivan Aviation!
St. Elias the gardian of the Fighter pilot.

Hi,

Sorry for not replying in a while, thought that this thread had 'died down'.

CAG,

Please, listen to what I am saying.

125 MiG 21 bis' , (the youngest airframes) are to be upgraded, the remaining MiG 21s to be scrapped, ie: the MiG 21 non UPG bis, MiG 21 M/MF, MiG 21 UM/US.

They are not 'cannon fodder'
They can carry the R77, although because of the smaller Kopyo, cannot fire upto maximum range. But thats better than an R 27 fired from 80kms away, with the launching Su 30 MKK keeping lock.

Dont forget, in any war with China, they are NOT the only aircraft at the IAFs disposal, MiG 29s(locally upgraded, test firing of R77 with MiG 29s in Oct 98), Mirage 2000Hs(with Super 530, BVRAAM, SARH), and Su 30 MKIs,(N011M Bars, Phased aray radar, with R77s, R27, long burns and R73s).
MiG 21s will therefore NOT be alone, fighting the PLAAF, as you seem to make out.


1 whole squadron has been upgraded(MiG 21s), with how many ever underway (reason I say this is that in India, the defense services are very very PR shy, and dont usually report any major upgrades, EW systems purchases, etc) is not known.


As fior your other point of why upgrade them? well CAG, tell me what else do we do, we are short on funds, have upgrades for both Jaguars and MiG 27s , purchasing an expensive fighter(MKI) and inducting a new fighter together to do.

We have no other choice.....sure, if I could, or if any pilot could , he would rather fly an F 15 (the one in Alaska with the sexy PA radar) anyday.

The LCA is delayed, the Mirage 2000-5 too expensive to be brought in numbers, Rafale is not fully developed, Gripen comes with lots ans lots of strings attached, and a teen-fighter made in the US, hah! no chance, even if we wanted to.

Am I beginning to get through to you now?

_________________
Download FAMP 1.1, FA India Pakistan and Music Libs

http://13vultures.tripod.com,

Centurian's
http://www.theforsakenoutlaw.com/main.htm

I dont know Manoj, I have tried to tell them that theres no ohter choice, for India or many other smaller nations but to update the MiG-21's. so nations cannot afford to buy new jet and its cheaper to update them, while others are under sanctions or in disputes with leading arms manufactors preventing aquasition of new jets.

_________________


August 2nd 2003
The 110th Anniversary of Yugolsaivan Aviation!
St. Elias the gardian of the Fighter pilot.

Russia has hundreds of fully functional MiG-23s sitting in storage. Plus excess SU-27s that they have no pilots to fly likewise in storage. Also brand new production SU-17(not sure of the sub series) also. These aricraft can be purchased for pennies on the ruble(heh)... Any of these aircraft would be a much effective weapon then upgraded MiG-21s due simply to the limited fuel capability of the design, not counting all the additional problems of the limited range and power(due to limited size) of the new radar and the subsquent limited effective range of the R-77s...

Hi CAG,


Actually the MiG 23s have ha higher attrition rate in the IAF and most other places(IIRC) than the MiG 21s. About the Su 17 and the Su27s that are in excess, I agree, but then who I aint the politician?

Moreover, Su 27s might not be possible as they wont be cheap and the Russians would be reluctant to sell them off, OTOH, MiG 29s might be 'easier' to get.

_________________
Download FAMP 1.1, FA India Pakistan and Music Libs

http://13vultures.tripod.com,

Centurian's
http://www.theforsakenoutlaw.com/main.htm

If you'd just dump all that caste system shit then you might have more to spend.

_________________


allah no longer exists, for I have killed him. You must worship me instead.

Hi,

da big!,

What an absolutely intelligent comment.. do you have any idea what the caste system is and how 'prevelant' it is in a country on 1.03 billion people?
Do you have any idea of how tough it is to 'brainwash'(in a good way) a villager's mind that caste=cr@p? And that a lot of our population that lives in non-urban areas, is not educated(not illiterate, but ignorant).
And, how would eradicating the caste system free up more money to get MiG 21 replacements?

This has been a good thread, with inputs from CAG, BT and all, if you wanna discuss non-military issues, go on over to the general disc. board which is meant for that.

_________________
Download FAMP 1.1, FA India Pakistan and Music Libs

http://13vultures.tripod.com,

Centurian's
http://www.theforsakenoutlaw.com/main.htm

Da Big,

Please dont revert back to your old self...

You have been doing an excellent job on this forum recently...

Posting intelligent and well thought out responses backed up by extensive facts with plenty of research into referrences and excellent links to them.

I have been quite happy reading those posts and watching you shut down those that were quick to doubt you, expecting no follow through. It raised my respect for you, and allowed our 'cease fire' to go into effect.

However you will lose this hard won 'bounty' if you revert to your one liner statements out of context of the strings in which they are posted (Its called SPAM, and its no JOKE)...

If you continue then it will be back to open conflict for us ...

Alright, I'll open a thread in the general discussion area about this. You need to give me some time to find some stuff to back my claims up before you go off saying that I'm mis-informed.

Besides- I only post backup links and stuff if my 'one liners' are challenged. So just give me some time.

_________________


allah no longer exists, for I have killed him. You must worship me instead.

Hi da big!,

Sure, go ahead!
However dont expect me to disagree with you often, I am very much against such 'systems'

_________________
Download FAMP 1.1, FA India Pakistan and Music Libs

http://13vultures.tripod.com,

Centurian's
http://www.theforsakenoutlaw.com/main.htm

Anyway, back to teh string...

The MiG-21 has no 'combat presence' due to its limited number of harpoints and internal fuel...

Its airframes have very limited hours left due to their age...

Why invest in this infrastructure when you could buy something else that would be much more effective? For a comparison, there are over 450 F-16As in USAF deep storage that are all fully servicable and able to be leased for use. The cost of this lease would be quite small in comparison to the cost of updating the Fishbeds. The capabilities of these aircraft is far in excess of the Fishbed in combat endurance and weapons deployable... Not to mention the capabilites of the airframes or the usable time left in them...

Again it makes no sense at all to update the MiG-21, no matter what recipe you use to make it...

BTW did you get my SU-30MKI shape and skin? Did it work out for you?

CAG out...

CAG I agree there are many aircraft that are better. But the F-16 cannot be aquired by the Indian government due to the US governemnt embarge, I mean the LCA was handicapped due to US not allowing the sale of engines. I belive thats something inline of what Manoj said.

_________________


August 2nd 2003
The 110th Anniversary of Yugolsaivan Aviation!
St. Elias the gardian of the Fighter pilot.

If I were India I'd buy Gripens, they are even cheaper to maintain than F16s and are quite capable.

_________________

Hell I would buy the Rifle or the EF-2000, but all aircraft come with strings attached. It is all political.

_________________


August 2nd 2003
The 110th Anniversary of Yugolsaivan Aviation!
St. Elias the gardian of the Fighter pilot.