Zephyr Net

I don't like the way canards look, they help a plane and all that yeah, but they still make a plane look ugly. Like a damn hammer-head shark. While the F-15 looks like a great white.

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allah no longer exists, for I have killed him. You must worship me instead.

That's nothing new, I know that NASA has those things. But they're experimental, as everyone knows- the frontline F-15s are canardless.

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allah no longer exists, for I have killed him. You must worship me instead.

Beautiful aircraft. THe canards more then doubled the performance. When they instituted the vectored thrust it quadrupled the performance in conjunction with the canards...

???? curiouse what you call "performance" obviously it didnt pull 28-36 Gs. The point of the program was to lessen takeoff distance in case of cratered runways( they gave up on the little hovercraft that was supposed to carry the planes over the damaged parts of the runway!!! )

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Fighting for justice with brains of steel

Let your anger be like the monkey which hides inside the piniata.

Turning Circle.. The F-15 ACTIVE had a turn circle comparable to the F-22s, roughly 1/4 that of the F-15C. Performance isnt necessaryly based on 'G' limit, but what you can actually accomplish within that same 'G'. WIth the canards you can point the nose much faster, with the vectored thrust you can force the tail to slide and in conjunction with the canards the F-15 ACTIVE was capable of a decreasing radius turn... insted of vice a versa with the standard configuration. With vectored thrust you can overcome the 'bleed' on the airspeed and loss of 'G' by decreasing the turn radius...

THus you get a much higher performance within the same 'G' envelope...

ok , that would have to be at a slowwer speed though(unless your talking about post stall unstable maneuvers), but yeah pointability would have to be much better with that set up. BTW I've heard that the Super Hornet has only slightly less high AOA maneuverability than the Raptor, must be the weight differance(but AOA aint everything)

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Fighting for justice with brains of steel

Let your anger be like the monkey which hides inside the piniata.

I've very curious what your source on this info is.

Zephyr

Man I'm digging through my old NASA links and contacts as fast as I can.
We in the business (wind tunnel techs) that have gotten to work with the E2000 call it the Euro-Pig.

I'll compare them when it's actually deployed.
By then I'm sure it will grow even heavier.
LOL

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"cool beanz"
D. "FETCH" Jordan

Lots of drag? But how, it's so sleek and sexy.

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Centurian

No it's not so much drag, as it is they want it to do everything under the sun, whats next a hot-tub.
LOL
All kidding aside, they where offered sweetheart deals to produce and or modify the F-16s airframe, which at the time of programme conception came closest to the flight profiles and loadouts and size constraints set out.

They wanted and sold the ideal of makeing their own design from scratch to the Europeans by makeing everybody over there think they would make a mint and create jobs in a beliegered industry.

But the fact is the oringional plane was a kick ass interceptor, and would be operational well into the next few decades. But the more multi-roles they added to the multi-role concept .... it started to grow. To the point that current models fully loaded (concept models) do not even out perform the current F-16s.
They have tossed soooooooooo much money into this programme it's a crien shame.

See it's like this .... add a bunch of hardware, dang now we are under powered. No problem we'll make the engines larger, dang now we gotta carry more fuel. Shit now it's way to heavy for the gear, no prob we'll beef them up. Shit now it's to heavy again .... how can we meet the desired flight profile ..... OK even stronger engines again .......
and it just never stops.

Very simular to what happened to the Tornado.
Two engines that where just underpowered, so they had to make two versions ..... history will repeat it's self, and I'd bet money you'll see two versions of this plane two, one small jet can't do everything under the sun, and then be expected to out turn an F-16. At least not the way they make em over there.

Thats all ....

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"cool beanz"
D. "FETCH" Jordan

.............. eeeghh
Sorry about all the images, this subject really hit a cord.
See I got laid off from a killer Model maker job in 99' working for ATI here in NN Va and at the Langley Tunnel.
Since then I've had to move to Baltimore once to stay in the money and DOD work. That didn't really work out cost me my marrige, and I lost my shirt selling houses and such.
I've returned to Va and been trying to break back into the model makin business.
I've got about a 50/50 shot on getting in on some of the Strike Fighter models going around now. And I've had to work at some real crumby sweat shops along the way, and supplament temp shops by running some machines of my own at performance tools nights and weekends.

This ain't got nothin to do with nothin, but for any of you younger guys thinking about getting into DOD jobs or even some high profile civil service jobs I gotta tell ya this ...... it's why I quit way back when (in the early 80's, hey things where a little different back then).
In some strings going around here there has been talk about drugs and such, now I know almost all here seem against such behaivor. That's good because I'll let you in on something most of the really killer jobs in the defence industry now require drug test. Not urine screens but hair test, they take a hair from your head, one from your back or underarm, and a pupic hair. These test show every thing that you've done for the past 6 or 7 years. blow one of these and if it's recorded, and you'll never work on the "black" stuff again. Now This ain't an issue for me, but I wanted to toss this out there just to give any of ya on the fence another reason to never start. I'm waiting on some test to return right now so I can continue the clearance process.

As it is if I get back in I'll never see the real deal, see how it works is like this .....
Say they want to make a new intake for the F-117, they will get us to make 7 different versions, but only one is the real deal. That way they kinda keep everybody guessing what the actual new shape is. We call this being "totally in the dark" and I'll be lucky to even get to do this because I've been out of the loop for a few years. The guys that make the dummy stuff never get tunnel time, never go abroad, and rarely get the big bucks, and are always the first to go.

The EURO-PIG .... gggggggggrrrrrrrrrr
That could have been a joint venture and they could have even maybe been cut in on the Strike Fighter if they had tossed that money into the kitty.
I hate the PIG and all it stands for.

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"cool beanz"
D. "FETCH" Jordan

I have to say Im very sceptical about the EF-2k. It will be a capable plane, but it comes to late. In 1990 it would have been appropriate, but the European bidding system is very ineffective and encourages small cheap solution in the early stage but then allows the contractor to beef their systems up (as well as the costs).

Of course this also prevents a consistant planning, as the early plans can't take into account any of the improvements which will be added later, but are not included because of the bidding system.

Even though the German system is not much better they've made some good deals recently. 6 weeks ago I've fired the G36 for the first time, it's incredibly hard to shoot less than 45/50 from 350 yards.
I can tell you one thing, the OICW is going to be an awesome weapon (at least the rifle part of it).

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It is a shame about the Typhoon... But I do not see it ever breaking into the main market for production orders. The JSF has already taken most of its market share...

Is the Greek order still going to go through? The last I heard they had put their order on hold to better research a F-35 variant to fit their future needs...

interceptors are dead, thier mission has evaperated and BVR missles just make it harder to argue the interceptor back into existance, it's multi-mission or nothing at all now. F-35 will trash whatever is left (after the F-16 came along) of the euro-fighter-manufaturing capabilities, Hawk and Mirage will be the only survivers because they are cheap and freely exportable.



heh heh heh lets just say the UK has access to certain US systems and techniques (for more than 10 years now) that Dassault will never get.

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Fighting for justice with brains of steel

Let your anger be like the monkey which hides inside the piniata.