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 Post subject: Game Remod to Return
PostPosted: Sun Nov 29, 2020 13:58 pm 
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:: take two because my phone decided to refresh the page ::

I've finally gotten around to reinstalling FA on my machine and the VMWare Player (what a chore that was) with an XP instance to run FATK. What that means is that I can get back to modding again.

Unfortunately, because the last VMWare instance is borked and corrupted, Cuban Missile Crisis went with it so I'm going to just start off slow again redoing Game Remod by modding the individual campaigns again just to make the weapons and aircraft a little more realistic; after all, that's all Game Remod originally intended to be.

But that leaves me asking what people have done or do when it comes to weapon & aircraft damages. I've always treated it formulaically. X weight HE warhead causes A, B, C, D, E damage to the categories and then blast-frag causes different and so on and so forth. I've always felt pretty confident in those damage metrics but where I've run into issues is with aircraft damage. In the past, I've based it on wing area as the formula driver. I'm not sure how that scales. So the AV-8B came out at 97, the F-16C at 100, and the F-15C at 202. Using my formulas, an AIM-9M would cause 208 damage to a plane, an AA-11 would cause 160, and an SA-6 would cause 1,230. I think the scaling might be off comparatively plane to missile.

Damage tables based on warhead weight in #
Image


Aircraft damage table based on wing area in ft²
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Trying to solve for this might be the biggest hurdle (beyond time). Looking for thoughts, input, suggestions, etc

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 Post subject: Re: Game Remod to Return
PostPosted: Sun Nov 29, 2020 16:34 pm 
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Here is my current work in progress:

ftp://ftp.frontier.com/pub/users/usnraptor/Fighters%20Anthology/Weapons/My%20Icons/AC%20Guns.xls

I probably am going to up the power of the Air-Air weapons a bit. I have created a standard and formula for the weapons, but not the damage aircraft can take.

Currently, for the standard, I assumed that one AIM-120 would take out a MiG-21. Then I set the damage power for the other missiles based off of their warhead size in relation to the AIM-120 damage points.


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 Post subject: Re: Game Remod to Return
PostPosted: Mon Nov 30, 2020 03:29 am 
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I don't necessarily think there's any wrong way to go about this.

That said, based upon most formulas we've used and seen thus far, the vast majority of SAMs and AAMs will destroy most aircraft in the game with a single hit (they certainly will using the formula you're using right now, except maybe the B-52 will survive an AIM-9 hit). That makes sense, of course, and seems to line up with reality. If you've been hit *directly* by a missile, you're probably screwed.

However, that's assuming a direct hit. Unfortunately, FA doesn't really simulate proximity fuses - it's either a hit or not. In real life, a lot of hits aren't actually direct hits, but rather explosions when the missile gets close enough to the aircraft. Sometimes it's enough to destroy the aircraft, and other times it "only" damages it.

The thing I've been doing with my mini LIBs (I don't have the FATK available anymore so I've pretty much just been messing with what's easily interpreted in the .PT and .JT files) is to generally have missile damage very close (slightly higher) to the aircraft hit points. What I've found is that while you will destroy a target with one hit maybe 70% of the time, there are other times where the target will take severe damage but keep flying. And that actually works with what I'm trying to achieve - an option between complete miss or complete hit. It's basically a janky way to simulate a proximity hit.

(NOTE: as CAG mentions below, this approach doesn't work as well for large bombers/aircraft that should be able to handle damage much better than smaller aircraft)

Of course, for a large project like Game Remod (as opposed to what's essentially a mini LIB designed for a specific mission), this may not be consistent enough. But it's some food for thought, when it comes to game design!


Last edited by Speedy on Mon Nov 30, 2020 22:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Game Remod to Return
PostPosted: Mon Nov 30, 2020 11:49 am 
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Speedy wrote:
I don't necessarily think there's any wrong way to go about this.

That said, based upon most formulas we've used and seen thus far, the vast majority of SAMs and AAMs will destroy most aircraft in the game with a single hit (they certainly will using the formula you're using right now, except maybe the B-52 will survive an AIM-9 hit). That makes sense, of course, and seems to line up with reality. If you've been hit *directly* by a missile, you're probably screwed.

However, that's assuming a direct hit. Unfortunately, FA doesn't really simulate proximity fuses - it's either a hit or not. In real life, a lot of hits aren't actually direct hits, but rather explosions when the missile gets close enough to the aircraft. Sometimes it's enough to destroy the aircraft, and other times it "only" damages it.

The thing I've been doing with my mini LIBs (I don't have the FATK available anymore so I've pretty much just been messing with what's easily interpreted in the .PT and .JT files) is to generally have missile damage very close (slightly higher) to the aircraft hit points. What I've found is that while you will destroy a target with one hit maybe 70% of the time, there are other times where the target will take severe damage but keep flying. And that actually works with what I'm trying to achieve - an option between complete miss or complete hit. It's basically a janky way to simulate a proximity hit.

Of course, for a large project like Game Remod (as opposed to what's essentially a mini LIB designed for a specific mission), this may not be consistent enough. But it's some food for thought, when it comes to game design!


The vast majority of B-52s in Vietnam survived multiple SA-2 hits before going down... So a single hit by a SAM, or even 2 hits, unless from something like a Patriot, SA-5, S300, or S400, isn't really all that realistic for a large bomber type aircraft that have multiple engines and can fly with some of those engines disabled and/or large areas of wing surface or control surfaces missing or damaged to be taken down so easily.

I model my aircraft accordingly by what history has shown them to be able to withstand. It takes a lot to kill a B-52 but not so much to kill an F-105 or an F-4... And smaller jets like the F-16, A-4s, and Harriers, were especially vulnerable to AAA and SAM fire.

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 Post subject: Re: Game Remod to Return
PostPosted: Mon Nov 30, 2020 23:26 pm 
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usnraptor wrote:
Here is my current work in progress:

ftp://ftp.frontier.com/pub/users/usnraptor/Fighters%20Anthology/Weapons/My%20Icons/AC%20Guns.xls

I probably am going to up the power of the Air-Air weapons a bit. I have created a standard and formula for the weapons, but not the damage aircraft can take.

Currently, for the standard, I assumed that one AIM-120 would take out a MiG-21. Then I set the damage power for the other missiles based off of their warhead size in relation to the AIM-120 damage points.


I took a look, you're really not too far off from where I am really. We're in the ballpark really. Nice to see, beginning to think I'm not nuts. Well maybe I am and you are too?

Speedy wrote:
I don't necessarily think there's any wrong way to go about this.

That said, based upon most formulas we've used and seen thus far, the vast majority of SAMs and AAMs will destroy most aircraft in the game with a single hit (they certainly will using the formula you're using right now, except maybe the B-52 will survive an AIM-9 hit). That makes sense, of course, and seems to line up with reality. If you've been hit *directly* by a missile, you're probably screwed.

However, that's assuming a direct hit. Unfortunately, FA doesn't really simulate proximity fuses - it's either a hit or not. In real life, a lot of hits aren't actually direct hits, but rather explosions when the missile gets close enough to the aircraft. Sometimes it's enough to destroy the aircraft, and other times it "only" damages it.

The thing I've been doing with my mini LIBs (I don't have the FATK available anymore so I've pretty much just been messing with what's easily interpreted in the .PT and .JT files) is to generally have missile damage very close (slightly higher) to the aircraft hit points. What I've found is that while you will destroy a target with one hit maybe 70% of the time, there are other times where the target will take severe damage but keep flying. And that actually works with what I'm trying to achieve - an option between complete miss or complete hit. It's basically a janky way to simulate a proximity hit.

(NOTE: as CAG mentions below, this approach doesn't work as well for large bombers/aircraft that should be able to handle damage much better than smaller aircraft)

Of course, for a large project like Game Remod (as opposed to what's essentially a mini LIB designed for a specific mission), this may not be consistent enough. But it's some food for thought, when it comes to game design!


You can sort of simulate a proximity fuse (in a way) with the damage radius. It's not really ideal but it's all we have to work with here. I want to figure out what it is for the AIM-54 because one of them took down 3 planes in Iran-Iraq. But overall yes, for a project as large as GR, I need something that can be more quickly and readily available and which is even across the board for consistency's sake. Still interesting to see.

CAG Hotshot wrote:
The vast majority of B-52s in Vietnam survived multiple SA-2 hits before going down... So a single hit by a SAM, or even 2 hits, unless from something like a Patriot, SA-5, S300, or S400, isn't really all that realistic for a large bomber type aircraft that have multiple engines and can fly with some of those engines disabled and/or large areas of wing surface or control surfaces missing or damaged to be taken down so easily.

I model my aircraft accordingly by what history has shown them to be able to withstand. It takes a lot to kill a B-52 but not so much to kill an F-105 or an F-4... And smaller jets like the F-16, A-4s, and Harriers, were especially vulnerable to AAA and SAM fire.


Like with USN then in a way this isn't too far off from where I am given the hit points I've been assigning.

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 Post subject: Re: Game Remod to Return
PostPosted: Tue Dec 01, 2020 05:45 am 
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Centurian57_369th wrote:
usnraptor wrote:
Here is my current work in progress:

ftp://ftp.frontier.com/pub/users/usnraptor/Fighters%20Anthology/Weapons/My%20Icons/AC%20Guns.xls

I probably am going to up the power of the Air-Air weapons a bit. I have created a standard and formula for the weapons, but not the damage aircraft can take.

Currently, for the standard, I assumed that one AIM-120 would take out a MiG-21. Then I set the damage power for the other missiles based off of their warhead size in relation to the AIM-120 damage points.


I took a look, you're really not too far off from where I am really. We're in the ballpark really. Nice to see, beginning to think I'm not nuts. Well maybe I am and you are too?

Speedy wrote:
I don't necessarily think there's any wrong way to go about this.

That said, based upon most formulas we've used and seen thus far, the vast majority of SAMs and AAMs will destroy most aircraft in the game with a single hit (they certainly will using the formula you're using right now, except maybe the B-52 will survive an AIM-9 hit). That makes sense, of course, and seems to line up with reality. If you've been hit *directly* by a missile, you're probably screwed.

However, that's assuming a direct hit. Unfortunately, FA doesn't really simulate proximity fuses - it's either a hit or not. In real life, a lot of hits aren't actually direct hits, but rather explosions when the missile gets close enough to the aircraft. Sometimes it's enough to destroy the aircraft, and other times it "only" damages it.

The thing I've been doing with my mini LIBs (I don't have the FATK available anymore so I've pretty much just been messing with what's easily interpreted in the .PT and .JT files) is to generally have missile damage very close (slightly higher) to the aircraft hit points. What I've found is that while you will destroy a target with one hit maybe 70% of the time, there are other times where the target will take severe damage but keep flying. And that actually works with what I'm trying to achieve - an option between complete miss or complete hit. It's basically a janky way to simulate a proximity hit.

(NOTE: as CAG mentions below, this approach doesn't work as well for large bombers/aircraft that should be able to handle damage much better than smaller aircraft)

Of course, for a large project like Game Remod (as opposed to what's essentially a mini LIB designed for a specific mission), this may not be consistent enough. But it's some food for thought, when it comes to game design!


You can sort of simulate a proximity fuse (in a way) with the damage radius. It's not really ideal but it's all we have to work with here. I want to figure out what it is for the AIM-54 because one of them took down 3 planes in Iran-Iraq. But overall yes, for a project as large as GR, I need something that can be more quickly and readily available and which is even across the board for consistency's sake. Still interesting to see.

CAG Hotshot wrote:
The vast majority of B-52s in Vietnam survived multiple SA-2 hits before going down... So a single hit by a SAM, or even 2 hits, unless from something like a Patriot, SA-5, S300, or S400, isn't really all that realistic for a large bomber type aircraft that have multiple engines and can fly with some of those engines disabled and/or large areas of wing surface or control surfaces missing or damaged to be taken down so easily.

I model my aircraft accordingly by what history has shown them to be able to withstand. It takes a lot to kill a B-52 but not so much to kill an F-105 or an F-4... And smaller jets like the F-16, A-4s, and Harriers, were especially vulnerable to AAA and SAM fire.


Like with USN then in a way this isn't too far off from where I am given the hit points I've been assigning.


F-14s and even F-4s have survived SAM hits and still come back to the carrier, but on the whole they would never survive two SAM hits. A-4s were particularly susceptible to SA-2s in Vietnam and SA-6s in the Yom Kippur War. F-4s also proved vulnerable to SA-6 hits. Vigilantes could absorb a lot of punishment and make it back to the carrier. Only 4 were lost to SAM hits during the entire war, with over 10 being hit by single SAMs and still making it back to the carrier.

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 Post subject: Re: Game Remod to Return
PostPosted: Tue Dec 01, 2020 05:56 am 
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Cent here is a link for you of all US Aircraft losses to SAMs during the Vietnam War. Unfortunately it does not list the number of hits before the aircraft went down nor does it list the number of damaged aircraft that made it back to base after receiving 1 or more hits...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U ... 20missiles.

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 Post subject: Re: Game Remod to Return
PostPosted: Tue Dec 01, 2020 10:50 am 
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Oh yeah I've gone through that link many of times.
We'll never be able to truly model SAM hits in that sense because survivability is so dependent on a lot of things. How close to the detonation, direct hit, where were you hit, etc.
You've got A-10s returning fully of holes leaking all manner of fluids or F-4s and A-6s basically crashing onto the deck because they were nearly out of hydraulic fluid after being riddled with AAA and shrapnel but then you have an Igla hitting at just the right spot and the pilot's ejecting. Even in FA I do recall there being some sort of randomity factor when it comes to damage points in that you could get 100% or it might not be 100% or what not. So really just dealing with damage points on "What should this warhead do if it goes in the warhead's favor" is that goal.

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 Post subject: Re: Game Remod to Return
PostPosted: Tue Dec 01, 2020 17:12 pm 
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Centurian57_369th wrote:
Oh yeah I've gone through that link many of times.
We'll never be able to truly model SAM hits in that sense because survivability is so dependent on a lot of things. How close to the detonation, direct hit, where were you hit, etc.
You've got A-10s returning fully of holes leaking all manner of fluids or F-4s and A-6s basically crashing onto the deck because they were nearly out of hydraulic fluid after being riddled with AAA and shrapnel but then you have an Igla hitting at just the right spot and the pilot's ejecting. Even in FA I do recall there being some sort of randomity factor when it comes to damage points in that you could get 100% or it might not be 100% or what not. So really just dealing with damage points on "What should this warhead do if it goes in the warhead's favor" is that goal.


Well A-10s are flying tanks. They survive with half a wing and 1 engine blown off... As for everything this else - Have not set your SAMs to proximity fuses? AAA is a different kind thing than SAMs. AAA is almost always proximity fused unless you are talking down in the weed machinegun fire. Even a direct hit will explode before contact from the proximity settings. FA does a good enough job modeling partial hits with hydraulics and oil leaks from hits, plus engine over temps and flight control limits so you shouldnt have to worry to much about that in your weapons settings.

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 Post subject: Re: Game Remod to Return
PostPosted: Tue Dec 01, 2020 22:06 pm 
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CAG Hotshot wrote:
Have not set your SAMs to proximity fuses?


Well I had no idea you could so I started to search around and holy shit:
viewtopic.php?p=18035#p18035

Okay so yeah this'll get introduced.

CAG Hotshot wrote:
Found some of them in an old archive...

Quote:
P.MOK'S SUPER DUPER LIB SECRETS - REVEALED!!

SUBS:

You already figured it out. Use the 'wave shape' and it looks like a small ripple on the water. I think I also had to copy the shape over once and give it the xxx_s.sh name so that it would not crash the game when destroyed. (objects like ships need a Destroyed Shapes as well as the primary shape)

TARGETABLE MISSILES:

The key is to give the missile damage points (I give it 50). Otherwise you can check the "Object is targetable" box till the flight-simming truckers come hime and nothing will happen. But DO make sure you check that box as well!!!

SLOW CRUISE MISSILES:

There are a bunch of setting you need to change to make a missiles 'cruise' at low speed.
2 areas are important:

1) Missile Info: The Flight Speeds Section is important. Set the initial speed to "0" if the missile is a slow accelerator, or set it to 400 or 500 knots if you want to get it up to speed quickly. For ship launched missiles you might want to make sure it has enough initial speed so it doesn’t drift back into the sea before engine ignition ( or you could just set ignition delay to 0). See below for additional Acceleration info.
For Fuel Expended & Removal I give both 6000 ticks (4 ticks = 1 second; 6000 = 25 minutes). The idea is that since the cruise missile uses a turbofan engine, not solid rocket propellant, the thrust is continuously provided throughout the missile flight (as opposed to conventional rockets, which would have often brief motor burn times, for instance, 20 seconds).
The Turn Rates section can be adjusted here as well. Generally the setting in FA seem to always be 60 degrees powered, 45 unpowered. This is probably quite a bit off from realistic. Vark's setting for the AMRAAM, for instance, are 1 powered, 10 unpowered. That means while the rocket's motor is burning maneuverability is very low, the missile will fly straight ahead until the motor has burned out, then the missile will turn to it's target. I should also note that Vark's AMRAAM the motor burns for 8 tick, about 2 seconds. Also note that once the motor stops burning (fuel expended time is up), the missile no longer puts out smoke. Very hard to spot an incoming AMRAAM with no smoke! But for a cruise missile which has continuous thrust, it probably is smarter to give the missile a better turn rate while powered. I guess you could leave it at 60.

2)Movement Info: Here the settings you want to look at are the Maximum and Corner Speeds. Since missiles are generally more agile than aircraft, I usually don't worry about corner speed too much, and just set it the same as max speed. Max speed for a subsonic cruise missile would be around 500-600 knots. So change that ridiculously high "3000" knot speed to 600. Now when launched the missile will acclerate from 0 (or whatever initial speed you set) tothe max speed for as long as you set the fuel expended. In this case since we set the fuel to last as long as the life of the missile, it will cruise at 600 or so knots until it is 'removed'.
Now, lets look at the accel/decel data. I looked at Vark's settings in VarkLib 2.1 for some ideas on what this stuff does and still have no idea how it converts to real-world speeds. But, some useful values: by default the missiles generally have accell 375296 and decel 37376, or thereabouts. These are not very impressive or practical, so what I did was up the accel a million or so: 1375296 works very nicely for high-speed missiles like AMRAAMs or Sparrows. You might as well leave it alone for the cruise missiles, since they would not accelerate that quickly anyway. Generally increasing Decel means the missile will slow down over the course of its flight and eventually, if it runs out of fuel, slow down and drop or loose lock. This is not good for cruise missiles which are supposed to fly for up to 25 minutes, so what I did was set the Decel to 256, and arbitrary number which reflects my desire to avoid excessive decel and at the same time doesn’t pretend there is not decel at all over time. You can play around with that if you like; see what works.

TOOLKIT TIP:

Proximity Fusing --
I don't have all the answers, but here's some ideas:
I am not *sure*, but I believe the final collision check EARLY or LATE determines, as you might suppose, when the game check to see if a weapon has hit it's target. A LATE setting would theoretically simulate a 'penetrating' weapon that would pass into/through an object before exploding, while an EARLY setting would allow air burst before reaching target. <<<< UPDATE: From my recent testing, BOTH LATE and EARLY need to be checked for proximity Fuse to work correctly

In a related matter, I discovered an interesting setting in the .JT files from studying some of Vark's files: proximity fuse radius! I am not sure how this setting works with the above settings:

look for the setting he the bottom of the section called:
---------------- START OF PROJ_TYPE -------------

byte 0
byte 9
word 4
word 500 ;fuze radius <---I assume, this line: kjs!
byte 0
byte 18
byte 18
ptr fireSound
word 6000
word 0
word 1200
word 100

--------------END OF PROJ_TYPE-------------------

(Wrench note: P.Mok doesn’t say what type of weapons he's looking at, but read on: perhaps an LAU type rocket?)

As you can see here, the fuseRadius of this particular weapon (the M26 rocket) is set to explode when it get within 500 feet of target. Higher values will cause the weapon to explode over a target, but it also means the radius of the weapon blast may have to be adjusted to ensure proper damage from the blast. Lower values will allow the weapon to home all the way into the target.

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 Post subject: Re: Game Remod to Return
PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2020 00:37 am 
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Holy cow brain farting HARD right now.

Radar settings

FOV Heading
FOV Pitch

Is this the total view or the ± setting?

So a ±60° azimuth goes in as 120 or 60?

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 Post subject: Re: Game Remod to Return
PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2020 02:18 am 
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Centurian57_369th wrote:
Holy cow brain farting HARD right now.

Radar settings

FOV Heading
FOV Pitch

Is this the total view or the ± setting?

So a ±60° azimuth goes in as 120 or 60?


The setting is for the entire view... 180 gives you 90 degrees either side of the scale... so if you are wanting full horizon coverage you need 180 in both settings.

And dont forget proximity fuses also work for AAA... I have AAA that blows up if its within the fuse range, otherwise it goes right by you as a miss...

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 Post subject: Re: Game Remod to Return
PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2020 15:57 pm 
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CAG Hotshot wrote:
The setting is for the entire view... 180 gives you 90 degrees either side of the scale... so if you are wanting full horizon coverage you need 180 in both settings.

And dont forget proximity fuses also work for AAA... I have AAA that blows up if its within the fuse range, otherwise it goes right by you as a miss...


Great so I have to go redo every radar :lol:


And yes I'll do proximity on AAA - should be nice with the flak bursts - ever since seeing that tip I can waste hours trying to find the lethal radius of SAM warheads.
Totally not a waste of time.

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 Post subject: Re: Game Remod to Return
PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2020 01:02 am 
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Centurian57_369th wrote:
CAG Hotshot wrote:
The setting is for the entire view... 180 gives you 90 degrees either side of the scale... so if you are wanting full horizon coverage you need 180 in both settings.

And dont forget proximity fuses also work for AAA... I have AAA that blows up if its within the fuse range, otherwise it goes right by you as a miss...


Great so I have to go redo every radar :lol:


And yes I'll do proximity on AAA - should be nice with the flak bursts - ever since seeing that tip I can waste hours trying to find the lethal radius of SAM warheads.
Totally not a waste of time.


You should list all lethal radius data here on the forums... :D

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 Post subject: Re: Game Remod to Return
PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2020 12:11 pm 
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I'm getting a lot of info from either Wiki or those old Janes entries.
I can't find much data on US stuff but I can on Russian.

Also I have decided on my Easter egg to include.

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