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PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2021 07:50 am 
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CAG Hotshot wrote:
These modifiers are mostly for ground to air missiles (SAMs). Not Air to Air... And you have to have all the modifiers properly set to make the missile perform like you want it to... Plus the only SAM I know of that cant pull more than 5Gs is the SA-5... Perhaps the Nike Hercules... The rest can pull a crap load of Gs...

Air to Air missiles have other more limiting issues such as smaller seeker heads and more limited G capabilities like the AIM-9B and AIM-9D of Vietnam. They could not have a target pull more than 4Gs without losing lock. The Sparrow wasnt much better.


True indeed for older missiles but I'm also working on this for newer ones too and largely the testing was for AAMs though for Test #1 I used a SAM because it was easier to simulate.
It was more just to see how the field performed, 5 was an arbitrary number given to it because it would be very easy to pull 5G in most planes in a basic test.
This will correlate though to all SAMs and AAMs.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2021 19:19 pm 
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Ran into this at F-16.net.

https://www.f-16.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=28234

Should be helpful at least for figuring out turn rates and stuff.

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turn rate in degrees of turn per second is (G*32.2*57.3)/(V) where G is the G load, 32.2 is the correction from G to acceleration due to gravity, 57.3 is the correction for degrees per radian, and V is the speed in feet per second.

armedupdate wrote:
Also don't missiles turn the hardest at their medium speed levels rather than their top speeds?

Let's qualify these terms. Let's call low speed a speed at which the missile is too slow to hit maximum G. Corner (Medium) speed will be the speed around which the missile is first able to reach maximum G. High speed will be everything between medium and top speeds.

At low speeds there is not enough airflow over the fins to turn at maximum G so the fins will be at maximum deflection. Interestingly, in this speed region the missile will still have near its tightest available turn (smallest turn radius). speed loss due to turning will be large here.

At medium speeds the missile finally has enough airflow to hit maximum G with the fins at maximum deflection. This speed will give the highest G, fastest turn rate, and tightest turn radius. Speed loss due to turning will still be large so you will quickly end up at low speed.

At high speeds the missile is structurally limited to maximum G and the fins will NOT be at maximum deflection. A maximum G turn at these speeds results in slower rates and larger radii as speed increases. Speed loss due to turning will be smaller as the lift coefficient used for turning is smaller as speed increases

So at and above Corner Speed, the missile can turn at maximum G if needed. At corner speed everything about the turn is at it's best, but as the missile will quickly be much slower it would hopefully already be near the target by this point.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2021 06:17 am 
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Centurian57_369th wrote:
CAG Hotshot wrote:
These modifiers are mostly for ground to air missiles (SAMs). Not Air to Air... And you have to have all the modifiers properly set to make the missile perform like you want it to... Plus the only SAM I know of that cant pull more than 5Gs is the SA-5... Perhaps the Nike Hercules... The rest can pull a crap load of Gs...

Air to Air missiles have other more limiting issues such as smaller seeker heads and more limited G capabilities like the AIM-9B and AIM-9D of Vietnam. They could not have a target pull more than 4Gs without losing lock. The Sparrow wasnt much better.


True indeed for older missiles but I'm also working on this for newer ones too and largely the testing was for AAMs though for Test #1 I used a SAM because it was easier to simulate.
It was more just to see how the field performed, 5 was an arbitrary number given to it because it would be very easy to pull 5G in most planes in a basic test.
This will correlate though to all SAMs and AAMs.


No that isn't what I meant... In FA, those boxes and %s mostly only apply to surface to air missiles. It doesn't much matter what you put in them for air to air missles as some of those fields will be ignored.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2021 06:20 am 
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Centurian57_369th wrote:
Image

Ran into this at F-16.net.

https://www.f-16.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=28234

Should be helpful at least for figuring out turn rates and stuff.

Quote:
turn rate in degrees of turn per second is (G*32.2*57.3)/(V) where G is the G load, 32.2 is the correction from G to acceleration due to gravity, 57.3 is the correction for degrees per radian, and V is the speed in feet per second.

armedupdate wrote:
Also don't missiles turn the hardest at their medium speed levels rather than their top speeds?

Let's qualify these terms. Let's call low speed a speed at which the missile is too slow to hit maximum G. Corner (Medium) speed will be the speed around which the missile is first able to reach maximum G. High speed will be everything between medium and top speeds.

At low speeds there is not enough airflow over the fins to turn at maximum G so the fins will be at maximum deflection. Interestingly, in this speed region the missile will still have near its tightest available turn (smallest turn radius). speed loss due to turning will be large here.

At medium speeds the missile finally has enough airflow to hit maximum G with the fins at maximum deflection. This speed will give the highest G, fastest turn rate, and tightest turn radius. Speed loss due to turning will still be large so you will quickly end up at low speed.

At high speeds the missile is structurally limited to maximum G and the fins will NOT be at maximum deflection. A maximum G turn at these speeds results in slower rates and larger radii as speed increases. Speed loss due to turning will be smaller as the lift coefficient used for turning is smaller as speed increases

So at and above Corner Speed, the missile can turn at maximum G if needed. At corner speed everything about the turn is at it's best, but as the missile will quickly be much slower it would hopefully already be near the target by this point.


Yes that is why there is a powered and unpowered turn rate options in FA, but you wont be able to simulate the majority of this in FA because it simply isn't built to add in all those variables to its physics equations. Especially for air to air missiles. It should still help somewhat, but unfortunately the physics in more modern sims are just generations and generations ahead of what we can do here since we don't have the source code like they do...

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2021 08:24 am 
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CAG Hotshot wrote:
No that isn't what I meant... In FA, those boxes and %s mostly only apply to surface to air missiles. It doesn't much matter what you put in them for air to air missiles as some of those fields will be ignored.


I have found an effect on those boxes with AAMs too. Most certainly the effect of Max G, Large Aircraft Increase all affect how the missile is operating. I'm sure if I got deep into it the other boxes would have effects as well given that these do.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 14, 2021 00:50 am 
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Centurian57_369th wrote:
CAG Hotshot wrote:
No that isn't what I meant... In FA, those boxes and %s mostly only apply to surface to air missiles. It doesn't much matter what you put in them for air to air missiles as some of those fields will be ignored.


I have found an effect on those boxes with AAMs too. Most certainly the effect of Max G, Large Aircraft Increase all affect how the missile is operating. I'm sure if I got deep into it the other boxes would have effects as well given that these do.


Large target size bonus (and reverse for small size) is a way FA compensates for the missile not being agile enough to hit a fighter but still being good enough to kill a bomber or transport...

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 14, 2021 12:07 pm 
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CAG Hotshot wrote:
Large target size bonus (and reverse for small size) is a way FA compensates for the missile not being agile enough to hit a fighter but still being good enough to kill a bomber or transport...


Even that can't make an AIM-4 worth anything ;)

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 16, 2021 07:51 am 
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AIM-4 was withdrawn form service for that very reason. I do not believe they ever achieved a single combat kill...? Or at least a very very small number vs number expended against targets.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 16, 2021 12:14 pm 
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They managed 5.
Imagine being the poor bastard shot down by an AIM-4D?

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 19, 2021 04:16 am 
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Centurian57_369th wrote:
They managed 5.
Imagine being the poor bastard shot down by an AIM-4D?


Even a broken clock is right twice a day...

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 21, 2021 01:47 am 
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If you want to see some excellent sam simulations ( SA-2 & 3, SA-4, SA-6, and SA-11 (which closely simulates an SA-17 as well)) and what you should have to do to beat them in BMS 4.35 watch this videos…

SA-2, 3
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=aXeKV6OgffA

SA-4,6,11
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=y6ADUG7Rs1k&t=1s

And just an FYI terrain masking only works in 2 ways in FA… If the launcher is within visual range of you with the terrain in between or if the terrain is between you and the missile and you are within the visual range of the terrain the missile will impact the terrain and the SAM will still see you “thru” the terrain for just that missile… it should not continue to see you and fire on you again until you are no longer behind that terrain or outside of its elevation display bubble (terrain goes flat again)…

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Last edited by CAG Hotshot on Thu Oct 21, 2021 03:33 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 21, 2021 02:03 am 
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For the SA-10, Patriot, Nike Hercules… I wish we could emulate the symbols on the RWR and the separate sound warnings from the various radars and threats…. And correctly emulate the inner and outer RWR rings. Also home on jam and proper visual guidance. In FA visual seekers are to deadly and not realistically simulated no matter the settings you choose…

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=EVVXx1WJQSk&t=1s

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Last edited by CAG Hotshot on Thu Oct 21, 2021 03:34 am, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 21, 2021 03:23 am 
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And SHORADs…

Part 1 SA-7,8,9,13
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ko8AXn_Mqmk

Part 2 SA-14,15,16,19
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGgec9NZB6A&t=1s

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2021 12:04 pm 
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Pretty good videos, really show the evolution of the SA-2 into the SA-3 into the SA-6 and then beyond that into the SA-11 that is virtually impossible to kinetically defeat.

Here's a linkto that vault they reference.
I find that the altitudes they list for the SAMs is way off (SA-5 going up to 327,000 feet and the SA-6 going up to 100K) but otherwise everything else largely matches what you find online on these SAMs.

I recently redid my SA-6 and tried to defeat it kinetically just to see.
I took an F-16C and basically left it with 50% fuel and no weapons and even still you're struggling to defeat it kinetically just because the missile can pull so many Gs.
Overall a good test. Truly shows the best way to defeat an SA-6 and its children (SA-11 and SA-17) is to destroy the site from afar!

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 30, 2021 01:45 am 
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SA-6s should indeed be hard to beat, but only if you pick them up late. If you see the launch and the missile you should be able to defeat it relatively easily as long as you have speed, altitude and distance from the launcher. The SA-6 has a high drag coefficient so at distance you can rob the missile of its ability to track you with just a few hard pulls to make the missile drag down by making it alter its trajectory to many times in the denser air. The SA-11 doesn't have this problem. It has a longer burning, and higher power, rocket motor so it sustains its energy better. The best way to defeat it is by either out distancing it so it cant catch you (fast exit of the engagement area) or by using terrain to mask yourself from the missile. And the SA-17 is even worse... Now from there just imagine 10 times worse for the s300 and exponentially above that for the s400...

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Last edited by CAG Hotshot on Fri Nov 05, 2021 06:26 am, edited 1 time in total.

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