Zephyr Net

My finial addition to this string is this ....
If Iran continues on the path they are on as to their development of Nuclear energy / weapons grade material, they might just get a chance to use some of their aircraft. Of course they'll just end up being target practice for the Israeli pilots that destroy the Iranian facilities.

But I guess only time will tell how that plays out.

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"cool beanz"
D. "FETCH" Jordan

That isnt to surprising, they did the same thing in FA Korea. I found that out when I re-edited the map for FAF Koera...

CAG out...

Fetch,

The Israelis are making it tougher on themselves with all the technical help they have given the Chinese, as Iran is now one of the biggest customers for new Chinese combat aircraft...

Punching though hordes of J-10s backed up by new version Flankers will not be an easy task. Add to this that those sites will most likely be protected by SA-10s and you are talking nightmare here! I certainly do not envy them!

CAG out...

PS - Didnt the Iranians also obtain some TU-22M3 Backfires?

You may have a valid point CAG, and on paper it may sound good.
But the fact remains time and time again Israel has defied the odds.
And has totally crushed those that would seek it's destuction.
To create, and maintain the Kingdom of David, has and always will be a tough fight.
Easy has never been a part of the deal.
But it is a fight they can not and will not loose.
My money is on Juda.
Given the chance I would stand beside them anytime, anywhere, regardless the odds.
And God have mercy on the souls of their enemies.
Iran will never be allowed to field Nuclear Weapons.
Never.

oops, had to make one more post.
And no, I am not Jewish, if any of you are wondering.

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"cool beanz"
D. "FETCH" Jordan

I dont know about that Fetch, the Romans kicked their ass pretty good...

You give the Iranians enough tools and they could do the job... It is never smart to help to arm your own enemy. Look what happened to us after we helped arm Iraq...

CAG out...

PS - I wouldnt fight for them, they have shown they do not care what their actions do to negatively effect the US... Just look at the Chinese AWACS project, we had to threaten them with the cut off of funding to get them to stop and they have flatly lied about helping them with the J-10/Lavi project in complete violation of technology transfer. Plus they have WMD, most of which is based on supplies of stolen US plutonium. They are not much better then the rest over there.

Not that I have ever seen anywhere.

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Centurian

LOL
I was there M-16 in hand for the first GW.
What is your point.

We helped arm them, because it suited our larger purpose at the time.
When it was required we took it to them and utterly destroyed and killed any that would stand and fight.

You seem to have a very simplistic view of things.
It reminds me of topics that pop up here from time to time about half shoot up, or damaged planes that return to base.
In most of these topics many here seem to give the credit to the machines evolved.
I do not, I give credit to the man flying the bird and beating the odds.
Men are heroic ..... not machines or hardware.

What makes the Israeli armed forces such a devastating force goes beyond the actual machines, and or the numbers in the field.
It is the devotion to a cause larger than the individual in the fight.

I respect your views, but I still think that the Israelis are at this very minute planning, training, and prepared to stop the Iranians from gaining Nuclear weapons, no matter what they field to defend against attack.

As much as I get into Roman history (it's one of my favorite topics) the Romans are gone, the Jews are not.
I do although understand some of your frustrations with the Israeli's but the simple fact is they do not answer to us here in the U.S.

It saddens me that you feel "they are not much better than the rest of them over there" and I realize there is nothing I can type here to sway your opinions. But someday when the chips are down for us, and it seems we have not a allie not even the britts, I do know one country that will stand with us regardless the odds ... the Israeli's

just my opinion

And if it seems I'm arguing against you, I submit that I arguing for the Israeli's which I love and respect as much as my own country men. I feel they have for many years shouldered the fight against radical Islam by themselves in a way on behalf of all the western societies. Now we are just starting to feel the venom of the enemies of progress, and democracy. And in this fight so far the Europeans have yet again shown they are timid and willing to deal with an enemy that has no morals at all.

I would like to draw you a parallel ....
Take the WWII, Hitler, and the events that led up to it.

Most of Europe was willing to deal with Hitler.
They gave up the Austrians, and the Czechs, and the Pols.
Only Churchill in 38' kept the faith and saw the reality of the situation.
Even the Britts when Chamberlain went over there almost made the mistake of trying to cut a deal with the devil.

I see parallels with the so called war on terror (heck I'll say it ... fundamentalist Islam).
Again the Europeans would like to stick their heads in the sand, and or cut deals with the devil. Britain did learn from history and decided to take a stand now before the situation became despite.
In this fight we are in now we are starting to see who are real friends are thick or thin, among these I count Israel.

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"cool beanz"
D. "FETCH" Jordan

Oh I dont think you are arguing against me...

I think I would go much farther, though, in the terror war and eradiate the entire middle east(politically and financially impossible, but ...). Its been nothing but pain and misery to the rest of the world since the dawn of time...

However, I do not share your trust in the Israelis. I think they care about themselves and no one else. The only reason they are our friends is because they need our $$$, nothing else, but just like you pointed out about your own statements it just my opinion and if it is ever proven different I will be the first to admit being wrong, however their track record doesnt live up to your high opinion of them. Perhaps your opinion is based on their loyalty and professionalism of their military and mine is based on the money grabbing ways of their politics (which is even worse then ours in DC)...

As for the Iraqi statement I made, I meant it in terms of they were our 'friends' when battling the Iranians, then they became more of a headache each year since that war ended, even more so now...

I agree with you about the Israelis being 'devastating' in the past, present, and future in their part of the world. The Egyptians want no part of them now, so who is left? Iraq is out of the picture, that leaves Syria, Lebanon, and the PLO (which is probably the most formidble foe they have today)...

However you should remember in the 1973 war they would not have survived if we had not supplied them with our ready war stocks of M60 and M48 tanks(and at no charge to boot!) and A4 and F4 replacement aircraft. They would have been completely overrun...

And I agree fully with your parallels with Europe and the War on Terror today and Europe and 'Peace in our time' mentality of appeasement and sellout prior to WWII...

And as for your service in the Gulf, I say job well done!

CAG out...

Cent... I think you are right, though I could have sworn I read that they did indeed purchase some, though the sale may have been from the Ukraine and the US may have provented it by enforcement of the contract the Ukraine had with us in dismantling their nuclear weapons and nuclear capable bombers...

CAG out...

As far as I know Tu-22M Backfire bombers were only in Russia and Ukraine. China inquired sale but were denied. Tu-22 Blinders were in service in Egypt, Iraq, Syria, Libya, and Angola maybe? I know in Iraq they were used against Iran in the Iran-Iraq War and they only had like 5 of them or something and they were crap, they really did bad. The Libyan ones were probably used in Angola, now that I am thinking about it. I know the Egyptian ones were used during the 1973 Yom Kippur War, I think, maybe, LOL, but I don't think very effectively. The Tu-22 Blinder was, in all respects, disappointing and less capable than a B-50. The Tu-22M on the other hand is a lot better!

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Centurian

so my friend if you are saying that there is power in men not in machines, do you think that isreael would have won the yomkippur war without the american warplanes and instead they used sticks against the egyptians?

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Belly full of HELL

It depends, would the Egyptians be using sticks also, or still be in the back pocket of the Soviets?

CAG out...

I think that I said exactly what I meant ...



And since you are new here I will be more than glad to point out that putting words in my mouth, or using some sort of pretzel logic to use my words against me may be slightly harder than you think, or are capable of.

here is a favorite of mine ....

It is as to great champions struggle upon a bridge over an abyss that within lies a terrible beast.
If one of the champions defeats the other, this would be a victory.
But if one was to loose his footing and slip and fall, the other would to surely jump in to save him.
For to decide the outcome based on one another skills is the victory sought by both.
But to let the beast destroy the competitor, instead of the skill of either champion would to prove nothing.

The victory IS knowledge.
The beast IS ignorance.

Please try again, if you do actually have a point to make.

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"cool beanz"
D. "FETCH" Jordan

so is that what thought of you from the Egyptians. When I peruse the conquered fame of heroes and the victories of israel, egypt does not envy the heros. It envys the machines.

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Belly full of HELL

Its the same reason they did not face the facts of the destruction of their Airforces in 1956, 67, and 73... Its easier to blame the aircraft then the fact that your pilots cant fly. In all three of those wars the majority of kills were made with cannons, not missiles... The Israelis never trusted the capabilites of the early missiels and instead chose to use them at max range and then close to engage and kill with cannon fire...

The Egyptians currently have F-4s and F-16s and still would not last a day in combat against the Israelis today. Believe me, I am no fan of their politics, but their pilots are the best in the world. The Arabs are not even in the same league...

CAG out...

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